Edmure v Robb Part 2: You'll hold what I tell you to hold!

[Wmarshal]

That makes sense.

[The Fallen]

From what we are told from Olenna Redwyne and their actions towards Forent men at Bitterbridge then yes they would have.

But ultimately it doesn't matter as Robb does not know what they would or would not have done so his plan to delay Tywin is ultimately pointless.

Olenna is talking after the fact as she tries to explain to Sansa (I believe) the craziness of marrying Marg to Joffrey.

I'm not sure what the attack on the Florents is supposed to prove. They attacked what they felt were traitors.

And Robb didn't need to know what the Tyrells were doing. The point was to keep Tywin from assisting King's Landing, allowing it to fall to Stannis.

Then Robb can let the Tyrells and Stannis bloody each other during the Siege of King's Landing.

[The Fallen]

Edmure had beef with marrying a Frey even with the shame.

Trepidation, as would I, since the Freys aren't exactly known for their looks. But he seemed happy enough with Roslin.

Tywin is at Harenhall when negotiations are settled with the Tyrells, he is aware of what is happening.

He didn't know. That's why the Tyrells had to send a rider to Tywin. It makes zero sense for Tywin to try to go west if he knows he has to link up with the Tyrells.

[Wmarshal]

After he met the girl.

[Trigger Warning]

Olenna is talking after the fact as she tries to explain to Sansa (I believe) the craziness of marrying Marg to Joffrey.

I'm not sure what the attack on the Florents is supposed to prove. They attacked what they felt were traitors.

And Robb didn't need to know what the Tyrells were doing. The point was to keep Tywin from assisting King's Landing, allowing it to fall to Stannis.

Then Robb can let the Tyrells and Stannis bloody each other during the Siege of King's Landing.

They purged a faction within their army that would be predisposed to loyalty with Stannis, it shows that they're prepared to fight against him by removing men of dubious loyalty in their camp that could turn during future battles with Stannis. Loras would have likely been pushing to march against Stannis

[The Fallen]

After he met the girl.

I like you WMarshall. If I were a lord I would want you as a bannerman.

Great post Meeow. You explained the Tyrell position clearly and matter-of-factly.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

And Robb didn't need to know what the Tyrells were doing. The point was to keep Tywin from assisting King's Landing, allowing it to fall to Stannis.

Of course he does.

Keeping Tywin occupied becomes meaningless if the Tyrells are bringing 60k in support of the Crown.

Robb does not know about the Tyrells and Lannister alliance. So any plan he had falls apart and yet he still blames Edmure.

[The Fallen]

They purged a faction within their army that would be predisposed to loyalty with Stannis, it shows that they're prepared to fight against him by removing men of dubious loyalty in their camp that could turn during future battles with Stannis. Loras would have likely been pushing to march against Stannis

The Florents weren't the only part of the huge Renly host that switched sides.

I'm more inclined to believe that it had more to do with the Florents being from, hmmmm ... oh yeah, Brightwater Keep. Which just happened to go to Garlan Tyrell.

[Trigger Warning]

The Florents weren't the only part of the huge Renly host that switched sides.

I'm more inclined to believe that it had more to do with the Florents being from, hmmmm ... oh yeah, Brightwater Keep. Which just happened to go to Garlan Tyrell.

You think their first thought, upon losing Renly and a significant portion of their army to Stannis was to kill all the Florent men so they could have Brightwater keep invested in them by the crown? I think the immediate circumstances support the idea that they're preparing to fight Stannis and the Florents that declared for him more.

[Wmarshal]

I like you WMarshall. If I were a lord I would want you as a bannerman.

Great post Meeow. You explained the Tyrell position clearly and matter-of-factly.

I would prefer being in a mummer's troop with you, our arguments are golden, and being lords may cost us are heads at some point.

[The Fallen]

Of course he does.

Keeping Tywin occupied becomes meaningless if the Tyrells are bringing 60k in support of the Crown.

Robb does not know about the Tyrells and Lannister alliance. So any plan he had falls apart and yet he still blames Edmure.

Why is it meaningless? According to you the Tyrells are interested in fighting Stannis. So Robb tying up Tywin in the west means the Tyrells, who are waiting on Tywin, would be late to save King's Landing. Which means that they now have to invest the Red Keep in a siege. So Robb wouldn't actually have to deal with the Tyrells for the foreseeable future. This is all according to your theory.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Why is it meaningless? According to you the Tyrells are interested in fighting Stannis. So Robb tying up Tywin in the west means the Tyrells, who are waiting on Tywin, would be late to save King's Landing. Which means that they now have to invest the Red Keep in a siege. So Robb wouldn't actually have to deal with the Tyrells for the foreseeable future. This is all according to your theory.

How does Robb know any of this? How can he be sure that the Tyrells won't act without Tywin? When this plan of his was formulated the Tyrells would not have been a factor in the Lannister camp, nor could he have predicted that they would be in the Riverlands at the time of Stannis attacking Blackwater and Edmure attacking Tywin.

[Trigger Warning]

Why is it meaningless? According to you the Tyrells are interested in fighting Stannis. So Robb tying up Tywin in the west means the Tyrells, who are waiting on Tywin, would be late to save King's Landing. Which means that they now have to invest the Red Keep in a siege. So Robb wouldn't actually have to deal with the Tyrells for the foreseeable future. This is all according to your theory.

This is assuming that the Red Keep falls to Stannis quickly, it's also assuming that the Tyrells would still be waiting even if Tywin was not on his way. I think it's safe to assume that there was some communication between the Tyrell and Lannister host, perhaps through riders or ravens. If this is the case then the Tyrell host waited to maximise their power before attacking Stannis. This doesn't mean that if Tywin isn't coming the Tyrells wouldn't be confident in attacking him on their own. They had the opportunity to increase their strength through the addition of Tywin's army and they took it.

[The Fallen]

You think their first thought, upon losing Renly and a significant portion of their army to Stannis was to kill all the Florent men so they could have Brightwater keep invested in them by the crown? I think the immediate circumstances support the idea that they're preparing to fight Stannis and the Florents that declared for him more.

That's exactly what the Tyrells did. And the crown, who the Tyrells were contesting, is up for grabs.

And again, there were 20,000 other men they could have attacked. Hell, they could have attacked Stannis himself.

All I'm saying is that the attack on the Florents isn't incontrovertible proof that they were dead set on fighting Stannis no matter what.

Again, the Tyrells never approached the crown for an alliance. We don't know what they would have done if Tyrion doesn't approach them. Do they go home? Wait for another faction, say Robb or Stannis, to approach them?

That's why the assertion that they would have attacked Stannis, no matter what, rings hollow.

[Wmarshal]

Mace already agreed with Littlefinger to be with Joffrey at Bitterbridge. We know that already, they were going to kill Stannis.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

And again, there were 20,000 other men they could have attacked. Hell, they could have attacked Stannis himself.

They did attack others.

"Lord Tarly has seized Renly's stores and put a great many to the sword; Florents chiefly"

[The Fallen]

How does Robb know any of this? How can he be sure that the Tyrells won't act without Tywin? When this plan of his was formulated the Tyrells would not have been a factor in the Lannister camp, nor could he have predicted that they would be in the Riverlands at the time of Stannis attacking Blackwater and Edmure attacking Tywin.

Come on little dragon. Since the Tyrell's actions didn't affect Robb then it's irrelevant. According to you the Tyrells were only interested in attacking Stannis. That works in Robb's favor whether he knew about the alliance or not.

Why is that hard to understand?

This is assuming that the Red Keep falls to Stannis quickly, it's also assuming that the Tyrells would still be waiting even if Tywin was not on his way. I think it's safe to assume that there was some communication between the Tyrell and Lannister host, perhaps through riders or ravens. If this is the case then the Tyrell host waited to maximise their power before attacking Stannis. This doesn't mean that if Tywin isn't coming the Tyrells wouldn't be confident in attacking him on their own. They had the opportunity to increase their strength through the addition of Tywin's army and they took it.

We got a look inside the Red Keep. The City Watch mutinied. The only ones who were going to be facing Stannis were all the women Cersei forced to stay. And Ilyn Payne. Taking the Red Keep would have been easier than getting across the river.

And if everything stays the same with the only difference being that Tywin doesn't make it then the Tyrells would have been too late.

Remember, Tywin was informed by the rider that the Tyrells sent.

Read Hear Me Meeow's post for an explanation of the likely Tyrell line of thinking. It's what I've been trying to explain to you guys.

[The Fallen]

They did attack others.

Thanks for that correction. The point of that post still stands.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Come on little dragon. Since the Tyrell's actions didn't affect Robb then it's irrelevant. According to you the Tyrells were only interested in attacking Stannis. That works in Robb's favor whether he knew about the alliance or not.

Why is that hard to understand?

Robbs plan was to keep Tywin occupied in the West so Renly/Stannis(and their host which included the Tyrells at the time) had free reign to attack Kings Landing and Tywin would not be able to help.

Do you really not see how the Tyrells joining up with the Crown negates this plan? Their military is large enough to defeat Stannis without Tywins support.

[Trigger Warning]

Come on little dragon. Since the Tyrell's actions didn't affect Robb then it's irrelevant. According to you the Tyrells were only interested in attacking Stannis. That works in Robb's favor whether he knew about the alliance or not.

Why is that hard to understand?

We got a look inside the Red Keep. The City Watch mutinied. The only ones who were going to be facing Stannis were all the women Cersei forced to stay. And Ilyn Payne. Taking the Red Keep would have been easier than getting across the river.

And if everything stays the same with the only difference being that Tywin doesn't make it then the Tyrells would have been too late.

Remember, Tywin was informed by the rider that the Tyrells sent.

Read Hear Me Meeow's post for an explanation of the likely Tyrell line of thinking. It's what I've been trying to explain to you guys.

And like I said just because they chose to wait for Tywin when that option was open to them doesn't necessarily mean that they don't have the strength to defeat Stannis on their own, of course that could be the case but waiting for reinforcements to further tip the balance of power in your favour doesn't mean that they didn't have confidence in their ability to defeat Stannis it's just further solidifying the chances of victory.