trgryn-strk-lnstr-mrtell Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 Ok here's where im confused and would appreciate everyone's input.... WW attacks 8000 yrs ago...they are defeated and sent back, Wall's erected. First...if WW can turn humans or even babies in to other WW, then why didnt Azor Ahai or whoever else force every human to be south of the wall? I guess argument could be made that in last 8000 yrs, people who didnt want to be kneelers went back north to be free... second...if theory of Craster's blood being the special/unqiue one to produce WW's is true, and all the new WW are just his sons, think about it...crasters been doing this what...at the most 50 yrs? more likely 30....and no matter how fertile you think he is, he cant have sired more than a hundred sons...does it seem likely that entire WW army would consist of only a 100 of them plus whatever few thousand wights? this does make me think that WW's have similar arrangements with other wildlings, but only a few despicable creatures like craster would agree to keep up a steady supply of sacrificing sons/babies. Keep in mind, WW's have been planing this for a few millenniums! As for his "dont touch my wives", it doesnt have to be anything related to blood purity...he's a selfish, greedy, horny bastard (literally), he wasnt even willing to share his food or drinks if you remember...do you think its unreasonable a man like that would be unwilling to share his wives who also happen to be his daughters (double reasons for protectiveness) third...to whomever thinks Benjen Stark is Night's King...WW's were already attacking aggressively prior to start of book 1, that is what started Mance getting all of them together and those were the reports the NW got before Benjen went on the ranging to find out further information. How could he rise to the leadership of the WW in under 2 years? fourth...does anyone remember if ColdHands explained his motives for helping Bran (almost seemed like he was sent to get Bran from the Wall to BloodRaven, indicating BR somehow communicated with CH and gave him orders or a reason to do it...if that is the case, then the WW's want Bran on their side..unless CH went rouge and decided to help Bran since he might be able to beat the WW's.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Envie Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 This is from George's blog, how he responded: How do you define "spoiler?" If something happens on the show before it happens in the book, I suppose one could call that a spoiler.If something happens on the show, but happens very differently in the books, is that still a spoiler?If something happens on the show, but never happens in books, what precisely was spoiled? He will not give anything else. Well that's pretty good information to remember even if we don't know which part he's saying is or isn't like it is or isn't in the books.... :dunno: He's saying "Hey that big jaw-dropping scene at the end of episode 4 may OR may not be spoiler material because it may or may not be in the books!" Color me confused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 Well that's pretty good information to remember even if we don't know which part he's saying is or isn't like it is or isn't in the books.... :dunno: He's saying "Hey that big jaw-dropping scene at the end of episode 4 may OR may not be spoiler material because it may or may not be in the books!" Color me confused. I think he meant that what we saw is exactly what it is in books, but the situation was presented in a different way. So, yeah, spoiled. :/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Envie Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 I think he meant that what we saw is exactly what it is in books, but the situation was presented in a different way. So, yeah, spoiled. :/ I guess some of us feel it was spoiler material and others don't. If it's the same material we already knew from the books (as translated by the women of Craster's Keep about their sons) then it's not really spoiler material other than the visuals we were given which is all up to perspective and a whole lot of interpretation. I'm still really not sure how I feel about it all. I absolutely loved the visuals but at the same time it just seems to open a whole can of worms and "what if" speculation that of course I'm sure D&D were anticipating and George is just chuckling about because he's a sadistic writer like that anyways. We already know he gets a big kick out of working us all into a frenzy! Edit: The only part we didn't know from Craster's wives was what happens to the sons physically after the White Walkers take them. We know they still 'live' somehow because the "brothers" come back for the babies - the wives / Mothers already know this part. The white walker taking the baby to the head honcho and him touching it's cheek and turning it into a White Walker too - that's the only part visually we didnt' know about... is that just a "Different interpretation" as hinted by George? Not really what happens or is never explained in the book? Did D&D just make that shit up?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trgryn-strk-lnstr-mrtell Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 ^^ im with you on this...from the interview with D&D it seemed like their interpretation on something GRRM said to them...I think (and hope) that it will be different in the books...Before the episode people were speculating that Bran was seeing through the babies POV on the scene...D&D said they shot the scene from the babies POV on purpose to give it a more creepy vibe....so its possible at some point in the books Bran might actually see it through the babies POV see that scene without knowing its Crasters baby...I wouldn't call it a spoiler because while its similar the book could have its own way of showing it which is very different from the show Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Envie Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 Edit: The only part we didn't know from Craster's wives was what happens to the sons physically after the White Walkers take them. We know they still 'live' somehow because the "brothers" come back for the babies - the wives / Mothers already know this part. The white walker taking the baby to the head honcho and him touching it's cheek and turning it into a White Walker too - that's the only part visually we didnt' know about... is that just a "Different interpretation" as hinted by George? Not really what happens or is never explained in the book? Did D&D just make that shit up?? I'm quoting myself in a reply because my own remark just made a small revelation for me: Craster's wives knew their sons weren't being killed as sacrifices - hence their chanting "Gift to the Gods" ... the boys were a GIFT, not a sacrifice to be killed! In their eyes, this was definitely a better outcome for their sons than Craster killing them himself! I always wondered how all those women could live there all that time, so cowed by one fat old asshole like Craster and willingly hand over their babies. I mean, I guess the fighter in me would be the one to say "There's 12 of us to one of him, lets smack him over the head while he's passed out drunk and be done with him!" .... but the logic behind that is flawed....they'd be at the mercy of the White Walkers the same as every other wildling. These poor women willingly gave up their sons as 'gifts' so they, and their daughters could survive and live on..... Mind.Blown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trgryn-strk-lnstr-mrtell Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 ^^ plus they were probably brainwashed from childhood to belive it is their duty towards they father/husband....takes abuse to a whole other level Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Envie Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 ^^ plus they were probably brainwashed from childhood to belive it is their duty towards they father/husband....takes abuse to a whole other level Abuse by their Father/husband is nothing compared to the threat of the White Walkers should they stop providing a steady stream of sons ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trgryn-strk-lnstr-mrtell Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 Abuse by their Father/husband is nothing compared to the threat of the White Walkers should they stop providing a steady stream of sons ... without the abuse/brainwashing, they might have still decided to stage a coup or at least run away to join the other wildlings with Mance...the fear of WW might have made them ok to give up the sons, but the abuse is why they all stayed there under Craster, they must have felt it was their duty... also explains why they not fighting back against the "fuck em till they dead!", all of them seemed to be more docile than expected from just a few days/weeks of the mutineers presence i'm also remembering a scene when LC Mormont offered Craster shelter south of the Wall, crasters makes Gilly talk and she sort of parrots a spiel about being free is better than kneeling and other such crap that she clearly was programmed to say/believe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk blitzen Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 Is anyone else completely terrified by the fact that the nights king is thousands of years old? Wtf has he been doing for the past thousand years?! I'd imagine if he plans on attacking the kingdoms... Then he's been planning it for thousands of years... And if that's true then the first men are screwed... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trgryn-strk-lnstr-mrtell Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 Is anyone else completely terrified by the fact that the nights king is thousands of years old? Wtf has he been doing for the past thousand years?! I'd imagine if he plans on attacking the kingdoms... Then he's been planning it for thousands of years... And if that's true then the first men are screwed... exactly my point! how in the world can 10-17 yrs old kids (arya, bran, jon, dany) possibly battle and succeed against a WW king who is a few thousand yrs old! think about it, if NK is actually the 13th LC...and jon is going to be the 998th, there were 985 LC's in between...lets assume that on avg each LC was there for 5yrs (probably much longer) thats still almost 5000yrs! if humanity is going to survive, they need some seriously badass warriors and off-the-chart brilliant war strategists! and that's on top of Drogon, Raeghal and Viseron at their best Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Littlefinger of the Hand Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 As ygritte said to jon it is the wildlings that woke the whitewalkers during their search for the horn that could blow away the Wall. If this is true then the NK is asleep or imprisoned for thousands of years unable to threaten the south. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Littlefinger of the Hand Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 As ygritte said to jon it is the wildlings that woke the whitewalkers during their search for the horn that could blow away the Wall. If this is true then the NK is asleep or imprisoned for thousands of years unable to threaten the south.«I’m crying because we never found the Horn of Winter. We opened half a hundred graves and let all those shades loose in the world, and never found the Horn of Joramun to bring this cold thing down!» Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trgryn-strk-lnstr-mrtell Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 As ygritte said to jon it is the wildlings that woke the whitewalkers during their search for the horn that could blow away the Wall. If this is true then the NK is asleep or imprisoned for thousands of years unable to threaten the south. good point! i forgot about that part... but didn't she also say Mance found the Horn while we found out later that he never did? makes me doubt how accurate her info really is... still that would explain where the WW's have been for 8000 yrs! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Littlefinger of the Hand Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 Excactly. Ygritte is just a soldier(even if she feels she is equal to all) and knows only what she is allowed to know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nucky Thompson Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 What if the Oathkeeper from the episode title doesn't refer to the sword, but to Craster's oath that is being kept (even by the mutineers who had annexed his 'keep')? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Littlefinger of the Hand Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 That whould apply on the book version where the WW attacked the Keep as soon as it was annexed. In the preview of s4e5 we get a glimpse of Jon attacking the Keep himshelf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NaarioDaharis Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 This scene was honestly the most embarrassing in the series so far. More embarrassing than Shae's fake crying. How incredibly hokey did that WW look. I could not believe they chose that to be on the set of such a respected TV show. If this were Thor or some other shlock, that design would have been fine. It was cartoonish. The WW already really weren't the best with their gandalf-ish looks and wrinkled skin. I am OK with the show getting past the books since I figure Martin really doesn't give a crap about getting the rest of the books out. He's got his money. I am not OK with them making characters look like they belong on a kids show. I mean, can you imagine this guy walking up to Stannis, and Stannis' face? It would be laughable. They toned down basically everything else in the show as far as fantasy, and then this guy pops up on screen and is like "I will make you a snowman!!!" Who designed this guy? He was horrible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Envie Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 This scene was honestly the most embarrassing in the series so far. More embarrassing than Shae's fake crying. How incredibly hokey did that WW look. I could not believe they chose that to be on the set of such a respected TV show. If this were Thor or some other shlock, that design would have been fine. It was cartoonish. The WW already really weren't the best with their gandalf-ish looks and wrinkled skin. I am OK with the show getting past the books since I figure Martin really doesn't give a crap about getting the rest of the books out. He's got his money. I am not OK with them making characters look like they belong on a kids show. I mean, can you imagine this guy walking up to Stannis, and Stannis' face? It would be laughable. They toned down basically everything else in the show as far as fantasy, and then this guy pops up on screen and is like "I will make you a snowman!!!" Who designed this guy? He was horrible. Haha your critique made me laugh, well said! I will admit I never liked the way they chose to make the white walkers look, visually. I realize they can't afford to do a lot more fancy CGI stuff since they're already doing that with the dragons and direwolves, but the makeup and effects they did choose are not at all like they were described in the book. The head honcho guy does look a bit like an "Ice Maul" character straight out of a sci fi or horror flick or even an old 80s fantasy film (Labyrinth anyone?). White Walkers were supposed to look really bizarre and 'otherworldly' - scary but not in a horror / creepy way but rather, in a strange alien way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trgryn-strk-lnstr-mrtell Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 This scene was honestly the most embarrassing in the series so far. More embarrassing than Shae's fake crying. How incredibly hokey did that WW look. I could not believe they chose that to be on the set of such a respected TV show. If this were Thor or some other shlock, that design would have been fine. It was cartoonish. The WW already really weren't the best with their gandalf-ish looks and wrinkled skin. I am OK with the show getting past the books since I figure Martin really doesn't give a crap about getting the rest of the books out. He's got his money. I am not OK with them making characters look like they belong on a kids show. I mean, can you imagine this guy walking up to Stannis, and Stannis' face? It would be laughable. They toned down basically everything else in the show as far as fantasy, and then this guy pops up on screen and is like "I will make you a snowman!!!" Who designed this guy? He was horrible. most people were disappointed with the way D&D chose to make the WW look from the first glimpse in s2...i agree with you that they look like a cartoon or kids version of how they were described in the book. but its been almost 2 yrs, i have made my peace with them looking the way they do on the show...not happy, but content... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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