The Other Revelation Part II: Ice Scream Edition

[Littlefinger of the Hand]

Actually i meant no offense and I apologize if any was taken although I don't understand what bothered you so much. You said that the NW oath can be fit to the others, I said why it can't, and you continued by stating that noone can know for sure what GRRM has in mind. I agreed and finished with stating why I don't think that, what you said, IMHO, cannot be in GRRM's mind. That's civilised conversation ,again IMHO. I never questioned your person or character, only your point.

But still if I was considered aggressive, because of the lack of personal contact and personal tone in a text form of communication I have to apologize....

Anyway try to be more polite to 3rd people who come to smooth things and help for a friendly solution( for your attack on strk-lnstr-trgrn etc etc)

[Modesty Lannister]

Actually i meant no offense and I apologize if any was taken although I don't understand what bothered you so much. You said that the NW oath can be fit to the others, I said why it can't, and you continued by stating that noone can know for sure what GRRM has in mind. I agreed and finished with stating why I don't think that, what you said, IMHO, cannot be in GRRM's mind. That's civilised conversation ,again IMHO. I never questioned your person or character, only your point.

But still if I was considered aggressive, because of the lack of personal contact and personal tone in a text form of communication I have to apologize....

Anyway try to be more polite to 3rd people who come to smooth things and help a peaceful solution

Thanks for that. :cheers: When I mentioned the oath, I was referring to an earlier discussion on this thread about Night's King. If the guy who turned the baby and was briefly identified as such by the HBO website, is NK, he was/is also the 13th LC of the NW. So, it would make sense to discuss the oath in the light of that revelation. Many people on this thread assume other 12 WW are also LC of the NW. So, I do think the discussion of the oath has a merit. Hence, I was floored by your attack.

EDIT 2: Sorry everyone. I have reedit my post because Littlefinger of the Hand reedited his post twice and his message is altered.

Littlefinger of the Hand: I really don't know what you are talking about re strk-Instr-trgrn. He claimed D&D created their own version of the scene we were discussing. I said that it was naive to think that anyone in a multibillion TV/publishing enterprise would be free riding in such an important scene. I made a distinction between the baby turning scene and scenes like Bran being captured at Craster's because the former can alter the overall plot and the latter cannot. Calling someone's view on how a big marketing machinery operates naive is not a personal insult, nor it was ever meant to be an insult of any kind. What you are implying by your post is that you just retaliated for something you perceived as an insult of a third party, by attacking my post that had a content, which was totally unrelated to a discussion with that third person. I cannot understand that kind of behaviour. Posts should be discussed on their content, not just because you have a certain perception of a poster. This is a book forum. We are discussing books (in this case a book spoiler in a show). Why does it have to escalate into something personal is beyond me? Also, it's a waste of thread imho.

[Rooseman]

The guy from The History of Westeros made an interesting observation in their latest episode.

When the Other carries Craster's son off, he rides over a frozen lake and there's a frozen waterfall as well. A very deliberate choice, doesn't seem like they haven't really thought about it.

So, this region apparently hasn't always been as cold. Maybe the Land of Always Winter has been green, once.

[Hielo y Fuego]

The guy from The History of Westeros made an interesting observation in their latest episode.

When the Other carries Craster's son off, he rides over a frozen lake and there's a frozen waterfall as well. A very deliberate choice, doesn't seem like they haven't really thought about it.

So, this region apparently hasn't always been as cold. Maybe the Land of Always Winter has been green, once.

Yeah, that was very interesting, no doubt.

I guess the question in this case would be if it's the Others who brought the freezing cold to the LoAW or if they can actually evolve and survive under warmer conditions, if the place was warm when the race first appeared.

[Areo Speedwagon]

Hmm…humans in Planetos are cruel even to their own children. The Others, it would seem now, not only value human babes, but could even be said to be gentle to them. Humans in Planetos are capable of comitting the worst kind of attrocities to each other, just to sate their lust for power. But I've yet to see an Other stab one of his own in the back.

So who's to say that humanity is not the real villain in this world, and that it needs to be saved?

IMO, Martin may be trying to illustrate the damage that mankind is inflicting on the world through our endless wars and struggles for power, which in the end is nothing but a shadow on the wall, as show-Varys wisely put it.

Whether it's fictional ice creatures or fire-breathing Dragons, or very real tsunamis or wildfires, man should know better than to overlook the dangers of messing with mother Nature and pissing her off.

That's because you're looking at it from a human perspective. How do you think that all of those animals mankind has wiped out from the face of the earth felt about being hunted for centuries to no end, not for food or clothing, but for mere fun, by man?

Everyone in Westeros keeps ignorning the two huge and imminent threats looming on the horizon, b/c they're too busy playing their precious game of thrones. They keep weakening each other's houses, destroying the smallfolk (along with all of the important work that they do to help sustain the great lords, their ladies and their keeps) and winter's not coming anymore. It's already here. And it will be the day of the reckoning, or judgment. Absolutely.

Valar Morghulis indeed.

Oh Man, you and I are on the same page. I've always described this story as 7 families arguing over a parking space while a hurricane is bearing down on them.

But I have one nit to pick with the first post I quoted. You said the Others "value human babies." I'm going to argue that isn't true. That would kind of be like saying a "healthy relationship" is one in which one member is constantly trying to change the other to suit their own preferences. In fact it's worse, because at least in a relationship, the one trying to be changed has volition, can say "no," can leave the relationship. If the Others truly valued human babies, they would allow them to exist for their own sake and not change them into versions of themselves. That's what abusers do. Instead, the Others (and abusers) use them as a resource, a means to achieve an end.

Curious what you (and anyone really) think, but I figured I would post as I completely agree with everything else you've written here.

And the Great Other's name being Valar Morghulis did this to my brain.

[Modesty Lannister]

Oh Man, you and I are on the same page. I've always described this story as 7 families arguing over a parking space while a hurricane is bearing down on them.

But I have one nit to pick with the first post I quoted. You said the Others "value human babies." I'm going to argue that isn't true. That would kind of be like saying a "healthy relationship" is one in which one member is constantly trying to change the other to suit their own preferences. In fact it's worse, because at least in a relationship, the one trying to be changed has volition, can say "no," can leave the relationship. If the Others truly valued human babies, they would allow them to exist for their own sake and not change them into versions of themselves. That's what abusers do. Instead, the Others (and abusers) use them as a resource, a means to achieve an end.

Curious what you (and anyone really) think, but I figured I would post as I completely agree with everything else you've written here.

And the Great Other's name being Valar Morghulis did this to my brain.

I like your post. It is interesting how the Others turn babies into them while Faceless Men offer "a gift" of death. So, maybe that's what the Others are doing to humans as well. "Gifting" them with death. However, FM do make a good historical point. Slaves wish for death. Hence, Dany's liberation of slaves changes their wish for death into a wish for life. It's a strong force opposing those who wish to be "gifted" by death. If I'm rambling, ignore me. :-)

[Hielo y Fuego]

I've always described this story as 7 families arguing over a parking space while a hurricane is bearing down on them.

lol, that's a great way to sum it up. I wish I could say so much with so few words.

But I have one nit to pick with the first post I quoted. You said the Others "value human babies." I'm going to argue that isn't true. That would kind of be like saying a "healthy relationship" is one in which one member is constantly trying to change the other to suit their own preferences. In fact it's worse, because at least in a relationship, the one trying to be changed has volition, can say "no," can leave the relationship. If the Others truly valued human babies, they would allow them to exist for their own sake and not change them into versions of themselves. That's what abusers do. Instead, the Others (and abusers) use them as a resource, a means to achieve an end.

Like I said, I have trouble conveying my ideas every now & then, and obviously this seems to be one of those times. Let me see if I can explain myself better...

I obviously agree that the Others are abusers, who are taking full advantage of innocent creatures much too young to decide for themselves. They are the perfect example of the abuser mentality and they are only using the children to further their race, of course.

That said, I still believe that the children are much better off, because in such a brutal world, what options did they have?

I think Karl's assumption that Craster would've killed the babe in that "gift to the gods" scene is 100% on the mark, even if it's not in the books. Because that's exactly what I imagine Craster was thinking that would happen to his sons after he gave them to the Others.

In the end, he was sacrificing them to his gods, one way or the other. So the poor babes were left with no choice but with what very well may end up being the lesser of two evils. And to add more salt to the wound, the choice was always gonna be made for them by someone else.

Stiil, based on what we saw in last week's episode (which wasn't much, I admit), I got the impression that the Others respect and value their own kind, and they wish to preserve their own species in ways that one could only wish that the humans of Planetos did.

One could always argue that death may be better than life as an Other. But since we don't have enough info as to how life as an Other truly is (and I seriously doubt it would be as nightmarish an existence as that of a Wight), I think that's depends on whether the Others are damned creatures (as Melissandre clearly seems to believe) or simply, a foreign kind of life-form that humans simply can't understand.

And the Great Other's name being Valar Morghulis did this to my brain.

That wasn't me who said that, but that was pretty much my own reaction to it, yeah lol.

[salmonsnake]

To me it makes way more sense for Valar Morghulis to be related to Rh'llor. The Kindly Old Man speaks of the many-faced God, but Jaqen calls him the Red God, which is one of the names of Rh'llor. Lord of Light demands people to be burned alive, while the icy Great Other seems to be associated with biological immortality. I also tend to think the Undying warlocks are related to the Great Other. It also doesn't make sense to me for the secret name of the Great Other to be in Valyrian, instead of True Tongue. (I'm still incredibly fond of the idea that the name is Hodor [and that Old Nan is immortal])

[Envie]

That said, I still believe that the children are much better off, because in such a brutal world, what options did they have?

I think Karl's assumption that Craster would've killed the babe in that "gift to the gods" scene is 100% on the mark, even if it's not in the books. Because that's exactly what I imagine Craster was thinking that would happen to his sons after he gave them to the Others.

In the end, he was sacrificing them to his gods, one way or the other. So the poor babes were left with no choice but with what very well may end up being the lesser of two evils. And to add more salt to the wound, the choice was always gonna be made for them by someone else.

This is the summary / conclusion I came to a few pages back myself. In the end, it boiled down to the lesser of two evils for those babies. The daughters who 'survived' weren't really the luckier ones by far IMO - they lived a miserable existence, isolated from society under the thumb of their Father who also raped them. Had the Others not taken the baby boys, it's highly likely Craster would have killed them himself as stated anyways.

Sure, one could argue that dying would maybe have been more merciful for any of those babies born - boy or girl.

It's really helped me come to terms with why the wives / daughters of Craster seemed so accepting of the sacrifices. They knew the consequences to their own lives if they didn't - the Others would kill them all. They also knew, because the 'brothers' / 'sons of Craster' always came for the boys that somehow these babies were living on in some form or another as either servants or soldiers (we don't know what their true role is yet) to the Others. I guess under those circumstances, the wives and daughters had little choice but comforted themselves knowing at least Craster hadn't brutally murdered their sons.

[Hielo y Fuego]

It's really helped me come to terms with why the wives / daughters of Craster seemed so accepting of the sacrifices. They knew the consequences to their own lives if they didn't - the Others would kill them all. They also knew, because the 'brothers' / 'sons of Craster' always came for the boys that somehow these babies were living on in some form or another as either servants or soldiers (we don't know what their true role is yet) to the Others. I guess under those circumstances, the wives and daughters had little choice but comforted themselves knowing at least Craster hadn't brutally murdered their sons.

Exactly.

Plus also, I think a mother's instinct is so strong, that any woman would prefer to see her son live any kind of existence, rather than being murdered at birth, by their own father, no less.

[Hot Kidney Pie]

I can't get past this 'Night's King' and all that entails..

Damn HBO just had to throw that synopsis out there :bang:

I cannot help but wonder about his involvement with the WW..

I'm lead to assume that he's their physical 'leader'..

Which makes total sense. Could be working as a catspaw for The Great Other? Similar to the Saruman/Sauron scenario.

I also wonder if these WW babies age at the same rate as a human would? I would imagine so.. (Obviously having a longer life-span).. I just can't quite wrap my head around a pre-pubescent WW..

And I haven't read it anywhere.. This could be irrelevant But if it were possible to 'turn' grown humans into walkers.. Why do they kill them first? Wouldn't you prefer a WW soldier over a wight? I mean.. The Night's King himself apparently underwent quite the transformation after depositing his seed into his white queen..

IDK

Does one NEED to be a baby to be turned into a WW?

Babies are pure.. They would have no memory or anything like that to mess up their WW duties..

Maybe TNK is a special case.. Like 'a chosen one' of sorts.. So he got special treatment from the gods??

Then I wonder.. (now this is certainly irrelevant) Coldhands.. Was he a failed attempt at turning an adult human?

And did he start to revert to his human/crow like ways whenever the blue didn't take?

Leaving him in a perpetual half human crow/WW state?

8000 years is a long time.. I'm sure they've done their share of experimentation..

The level of mystery is just soo high right now.. I know I'll probably be satisfied by the outcome (seeing as I've already more than gotten my money's worth out of this series) .. I just hope people aren't disappointed.. So many put so much stock in the 'end game'..

[jon crow]

My thoughts:

Other carrying the baby definitely isn't coldhands. Get real.

"Night's king" could just be a title, not necessarily referring to the 13th LC specifically.

Getting more theoretical, the last hero of legend rode out with twelve companions. Thirteen champions of humanity/life against thirteen leaders of the others? It definitely looked like all of the figures were wearing black though which is extremely interesting. Full-fledged others wearing black not just wights, unless those other twelve silhouettes were just reflections in the ice.

[Hot Kidney Pie]

"Night's king" could just be a title, not necessarily referring to the 13th LC specifically.

Yeah, that had crossed my mind.. Which I could buy that.. It just makes sense that TNK would be involved in the WW happenings. It could just be a 'title' though as you said.. I'd just reeeeally like to believe that it all connects.

[Areo Speedwagon]

snip...

yeah, we're on the same page. That one point just stuck out because of everything else.

I agree that horrible as it is to say, maybe the boys are better off than the girls who have to grow and live with Craster.

And yeah, that scene definitely made me think there's a social organization of some sort. It appears to be hierarchical, but may not be. Although for some reason I got the idea that maybe it's a sort of a mirror of Westerosi (or Westerosi society a reflection of it) feudal social structures - Wights as serfs, White Walkers as ... knights (maybe?) and so on.

Also, your posts made me think the Others may also be a patriarchal society, again the reflection or vice versa with Westeros. There's nothing in the books or that scene to even hint at this, I know. Would certainly be interesting, moving forward, if we were to find out the CotF are matriarchal. Is there anything on that in Dance?

Lastly, your point about Melisandre and "damned creatures" got me thinking. Valar Morghulis, all men must die. And so far, we've seen two confirmed, and one most likely case of what can come after. Kiss of Fire, Touch of Ice, the last being Qyburn and the most likely re-animated-through-necromancy Robert Strong. Of those three, brutal as it may seem at times, R'hlorr is the only god that seems to offer either rebirth or a finite end. Fire consumes and Ice preserves. This can also be taken as an allegory for what happens after you die. With the Others they gave give you life after death, but not really, only as thrall, a slave. Further, Ice preserves. Maybe this arrangement of living-death slavery is endless. Maybe White Walkers are like the weirwoods, they're functionally immortal, but still can be killed. And the wights, as we saw with the hand Thorne took with him to KL, are obedient slave until they rot to the bone. Death by fire is the purest death. Maybe that's true, and in this world, that's very important. Beric seemed far more sentient, volitional than any other walking around post mortem.

Continuing that thought, it's very interesting that one of the main characters and themes of the entire series is the eradication of slavery, and the voice of that theme has fire breathing dragons. It would seems that maybe by the time this series is done, slavery will be eradicated both in this world and the afterlife.

[jon crow]

Also re: the whole "great other" debate.

Pretty sure grrm has said that no "gods" as such would appear in the series but their existence would be left open to interpretation though magic etc. therefore I think it highly unlikely that what we saw was any direct agency of some "great other" but definitely some kind of ritual magic we are yet unfamiliar with.

[Areo Speedwagon]

Getting more theoretical, the last hero of legend rode out with twelve companions. Thirteen champions of humanity/life against thirteen leaders of the others? It definitely looked like all of the figures were wearing black though which is extremely interesting. Full-fledged others wearing black not just wights, unless those other twelve silhouettes were just reflections in the ice.

Very cool idea

[Hot Kidney Pie]

Also re: the whole "great other" debate.

Pretty sure grrm has said that no "gods" as such would appear in the series but their existence would be left open to interpretation though magic etc. therefore I think it highly unlikely that what we saw was any direct agency of some "great other" but definitely some kind of ritual magic we are yet unfamiliar with.

He doesn't have to 'appear' himself to have been pushing things along quietly.

It is definitely some kind of ritual magic we are yet unfamiliar with.

I too, highly doubt he will appear. But his presence will be known.But "The Great Other" whatever that may be.. DOES exist. Maybe you're reading into the Sauron comparison a bit much.. Didn't mean it that literally. Just meant to get my point across.

TNK could be working from 'visions' not unlike priests/priestesses of R'hllor who see visions in the flames.

I highly doubt they've done all this on a whim.

And as of right now, it is up for interpretation, and this what what I'm doing.. Interpreting..

Not just hanging on every word GRRM said in some interview.. Good lord..

[grufolo]

I can't get past this 'Night's King' and all that entails..

Does one NEED to be a baby to be turned into a WW?

Babies are pure.. They would have no memory or anything like that to mess up their WW duties....

Simply, they need THAT blood. The blood that Craster and his wife from whitetree hah.

I tried to make the case a few days ago in tue older thread.

If anybaby would do, the ww would have easily raided all wildling villages for baby boys so they'd quickly all become baby factories.

They didnt because they simply need

1- the right baby

2- the sacred circle of icicles

3- possibly spikey ww to do the job as some kind of king\priest of blue eyes

Otherwise they'd have turned the poor baby right after the picking.

Plus i would not get all worked out on the number of ww at the ceremony of blueyesation, there's a good chance we're only seeing a bit of a wider scene.

[Hot Kidney Pie]

Simply, they need THAT blood. The blood that Craster and his wife from whitetree hah.

I tried to make the case a few days ago in tue older thread.

If anybaby would do, the ww would have easily raided all wildling villages for baby boys so they'd quickly all become baby factories.

They didnt because they simply need

1- the right baby

2- the sacred circle of icicles

3- possibly spikey ww to do the job as some kind of king\priest of blue eyes

Otherwise they'd have turned the poor baby right after the picking.

Plus i would not get all worked out on the number of ww at the ceremony of blueyesation, there's a good chance we're only seeing a bit of a wider scene.

I mean.. Who's to say that they haven't been taking babies from all random wildlings? They've just shown us them taking the 'sacrifices' from Craster. Idk if I buy that theory..

And yes, I do think people may be looking into the 'Thirteen' thing a bit too much.

But we can only interpret what we are shown.. And we were shown a lot.. But all it did was raise MORE questions than what we had before! (As intended I'm sure)

[Snowisnobastard]

This may be mentioned elsewhere in the thread but for obvious reasons I cannot go through the whole thing to check but....

Were there nine large pointed ice formations around the spot where the baby was transformed?

If so there are nine weirwoods in a circle near the wall, where Jon and Sam said their vows...