Pod The Impaler Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 most people were disappointed with the way D&D chose to make the WW look from the first glimpse in s2...i agree with you that they look like a cartoon or kids version of how they were described in the book. but its been almost 2 yrs, i have made my peace with them looking the way they do on the show...not happy, but content... It's hard for me to see the Others (the true demonic things of primal cold) as something other than completely unnatural, even ethereal - their "swords" can shatter common steel. Their "voice" sounds like cracking ice. The wights (frozen dead men) are pretty common stock, but the thing Sam (was supposed to have) killed was so far beyond them that it makes him amazing just for having slain one. I suppose there are limits to what the show can do in terms of the look of them. My main hope is that the show can (increasingly) clearly show the difference between these two sorts of beings, making the Others seem like the existential menace to all life that they really are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pod The Impaler Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 By the way, let me also applaud the title of thread #2 in this series. Ice scream ... har ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blazfemur Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 It's hard for me to see the Others (the true demonic things of primal cold) as something other than completely unnatural, even ethereal - their "swords" can shatter common steel. Their "voice" sounds like cracking ice. The wights (frozen dead men) are pretty common stock, but the thing Sam (was supposed to have) killed was so far beyond them that it makes him amazing just for having slain one. I suppose there are limits to what the show can do in terms of the look of them. My main hope is that the show can (increasingly) clearly show the difference between these two sorts of beings, making the Others seem like the existential menace to all life that they really are. Are they though? They have a social hierarchy based on this episode, and they have a purpose. Is it really mindless spawning of an army to conquer westeros? Or is it something more... While it certainly is possible, that The Night's King is the be-all-end-all supervillain with just a desire to conquer for his own means, come on now, the clues are there. His name cant be spoken. Who is he? His histories were erased from libraries, so all we have to go on, is the word of the Night's Watch, 14th Lord Commander and latter. Why? There's more to it than that id think, man. Something's not right here, and the lines between "good" and "evil" are constantly blurred, and even just one bit of information, one little secret, can make him justified and his purpose noble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Areo Speedwagon Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 See my earlier post. WHO was the 14th Commander after they exiled TNK? Was he corrupt? Did he change the ideals and structure of the nights watch from what it was originally? The Night's Watch we have today... is that the 14th lord commander's vision of the nights watch? 13th and prior nights watch might have had completely different values, and this is further bolstered by the fact that their libraries information doesnt reach that far back, that it was confirmed that all the information regarding the nights king and earlier -- was destroyed. why? Sorry, was on page 44 of the old thread, had the idea, very lightly skimmed this thread, then posted before i lost the idea. Regardless, I think you're right on. A major correction in the "mission statement" of the NW may have taken place after the 13th. And the scrubbing of more than just the 13th LCs name is very suspect... But what if it's more drastic than that? I've read it theorized on these boards that maybe that Lightbringer is a metaphor for the NW. It was also theorized somewhere in the first thread that maybe the Others, in fact, built the Wall. if that's the case, maybe the NW was an eff-ed up organization made up of Others, hybrids, and wights and all the stories of the Last Hero was actually the 14th LC and the last 12 members that hadn't been turned? I guess this would make the story of the NK a metaphor for the Watch as a whole under those first 13 commanders. I'll stop now as I'm just typing as I think. Would like your (and anyone's) input. But, to me, this is maybe a little "cleaner" (for lack of a better word) explanation of the presence of the 12 blurry figures behind the horned guy from the last episode. Again, earlier it was theorized that those were the Last Hero's companions and the LH himself may have brokered a peace with the Others as opposed to defeating them. That's a great idea, well thought out and certainly fits with the mythology, but no means am i saying what i wrote is right and that's wrong. Just an "other" idea. Maybe I just want a little too much to see Jon Snow happy for once and am in denial about his fate... I'll stop for real now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trgryn-strk-lnstr-mrtell Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 I don't agree, with the mutineers and Karl's company, going on a raping spree obviously. Not for morality issues, ive accepted the fact this is game of thrones so you wont see any "oh im offended" posts here. Here's why. They're disrupting the bloodline. If any of those girls get pregnant (which some of them most likely will), their blood will be impure. It's blasphemy to The Others, and it's desecrating the ceremony to which theyve been accustomed. Clearly, these babies need something from Craster's blood, and they wont get it from Karl from Gin Alley. i dont buy the importance of Crasters bloodline... first, crasters being siring sons for how long would you say, 30yrs, 40 at the most? WW have been around for thousands...assuming they were imprisoned or hibernating for a few millenniums, are you saying they have been back for 30-40 yrs and growing their army as slowly as waiting for craster to knock up his daughters? that seems quite weak of the WW to put all the hopes and future of their race on a drunken bastard like Craster...so following that logic, if any of the NW happened to find this out, all they would need to do is kill craster few decades ago (which even mormont could have done since he knew craster was giving up the sons) and boom, end of WW army! its honestly ridiculous to think Craster's bloodline is important enought to be the only single source of increasing WW numbers! second, unless craster had his first son and daughter with his sister (to which there is no reference off, since at least one of the daughters would have referred to the mother as "mother/aunt") the bloodline cannot be that pure to begin with...cuz think about it...he's not fuking his great-granddaugthers...at the max its granddaugthers...so wife, daughter, granddaugter.... basic biology, 2 generations are not enough to "purify" a bloodline and make some genes/traits wipe out others... its much simpler than all of that...WW's go around to different wildlings and kidnap their sons and leave the rest of the family unharmed...some wildlings figure that if they keep sacrificing their sons, they will be left unharmed...but remember, most wildlings are not as savage or evil as the southerners think...most refuse, only truly despicable creatures like craster would save his own ass by giving up dozens of sons/children... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Areo Speedwagon Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 I don't agree, with the mutineers and Karl's company, going on a raping spree obviously. Not for morality issues, ive accepted the fact this is game of thrones so you wont see any "oh im offended" posts here. Here's why. They're disrupting the bloodline. If any of those girls get pregnant (which some of them most likely will), their blood will be impure. It's blasphemy to The Others, and it's desecrating the ceremony to which theyve been accustomed. Clearly, these babies need something from Craster's blood, and they wont get it from Karl from Gin Alley. The more I read, the more I like the way you're thinking about this... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blazfemur Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 Sorry, was on page 44 of the old thread, had the idea, very lightly skimmed this thread, then posted before i lost the idea. Regardless, I think you're right on. A major correction in the "mission statement" of the NW may have taken place after the 13th. And the scrubbing of more than just the 13th LCs name is very suspect... But what if it's more drastic than that? I've read it theorized on these boards that maybe that Lightbringer is a metaphor for the NW. It was also theorized somewhere in the first thread that maybe the Others, in fact, built the Wall. if that's the case, maybe the NW was an eff-ed up organization made up of Others, hybrids, and wights and all the stories of the Last Hero was actually the 14th LC and the last 12 members that hadn't been turned? I guess this would make the story of the NK a metaphor for the Watch as a whole under those first 13 commanders. I'll stop now as I'm just typing as I think. Would like your (and anyone's) input. But, to me, this is maybe a little "cleaner" (for lack of a better word) explanation of the presence of the 12 blurry figures behind the horned guy from the last episode. Again, earlier it was theorized that those were the Last Hero's companions and the LH himself may have brokered a peace with the Others as opposed to defeating them. That's a great idea, well thought out and certainly fits with the mythology, but no means am i saying what i wrote is right and that's wrong. Just an "other" idea. Maybe I just want a little too much to see Jon Snow happy for once and am in denial about his fate... I'll stop for real now. I wouldn't, we're getting good shit done here. Let's keep this up. The Wall, other than the keeps and forts, is essentially made of ice. Well, how is that possible? Only one race can control/exert/bring ice/possibly control it's formation (like a cryomancer theory). Bran The Builder = an Other? Not The Night's King, but a separate Other? Inversely, perhaps the Wall was erected by an Other, however Bran The Builder took credit for building it when he constructed keeps and forts all over it. It may have been just a wall of ice, and he saw this wall and thought, "hmm, let's build stuff on that big wall." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blazfemur Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 The more I read, the more I like the way you're thinking about this... Thank you kindly sir Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salmonsnake Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 That dismissal could be very very compelling if we could assume he didn't simply continue something that someone else began. His father and mother remain unknown, the former assumed to have been a NW ranger at some point, but this isn't a certainty either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Areo Speedwagon Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 i dont buy the importance of Crasters bloodline... first, crasters being siring sons for how long would you say, 30yrs, 40 at the most? WW have been around for thousands...assuming they were imprisoned or hibernating for a few millenniums, are you saying they have been back for 30-40 yrs and growing their army as slowly as waiting for craster to knock up his daughters? that seems quite weak of the WW to put all the hopes and future of their race on a drunken bastard like Craster...so following that logic, if any of the NW happened to find this out, all they would need to do is kill craster few decades ago (which even mormont could have done since he knew craster was giving up the sons) and boom, end of WW army! its honestly ridiculous to think Craster's bloodline is important enought to be the only single source of increasing WW numbers! but bloodlines and their importance are one of the central themes of the entire series. Also, what if it's some cosmic pre-condition of the magic itself? Such as "only death can pay for life," or magic requiring sacrifice of some kind. What if the WWs can only transform those that have been willfully given? That would certainly cap the rate at which they can reproduce. Further, what if it's the inverse of the above? Since the Others utilize necromancy, "only life can pay for (living) death." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blazfemur Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 That dismissal could be very very compelling if we could assume he didn't simply continue something that someone else began. His father and mother remain unknown, the former assumed to have been a NW ranger at some point, but this isn't a certainty either. Thats why further back I went into Whitetree readings, where his mother was supposedly from. They literally found nothing there, like the rest of the wildling villages, when they went on the Great Ranging. However, and this is soemthign to note, George included Craster's mom's village in text, and didnt include the other three before this village. Why? What's there? What so important, wed include it in text, and not any other village? The only other thing worth mentioning? The weirwood tree with jagged teeth, and inside it, were burned bones of wildlings, placed there. Sacrifice? maybe. Who knows. But they were burned. Burned, yet still offered, at least to the weirwood tree (Children Of The Forest?) This sacrificing, or giving away of children... Is it a form of payment? Payment for something? The Others might have performed a task, in exchange for a certain form of currency, thus being a sacrifice of sorts. And if they dont receive payment, they get pissed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadwood Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 I think the magic in GRR's world works like the magic in the Discworld. It cannot truly create, but it can shift energy around, so we need the death of the witch, the kid and the husband to get the three dragons, and we need the babies to get the new WWs. Mance has no lineage to speak of that we know of, but his blood is King's blood by the power of his actions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blazfemur Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 i dont buy the importance of Crasters bloodline... first, crasters being siring sons for how long would you say, 30yrs, 40 at the most? WW have been around for thousands...assuming they were imprisoned or hibernating for a few millenniums, are you saying they have been back for 30-40 yrs and growing their army as slowly as waiting for craster to knock up his daughters? that seems quite weak of the WW to put all the hopes and future of their race on a drunken bastard like Craster...so following that logic, if any of the NW happened to find this out, all they would need to do is kill craster few decades ago (which even mormont could have done since he knew craster was giving up the sons) and boom, end of WW army! its honestly ridiculous to think Craster's bloodline is important enought to be the only single source of increasing WW numbers! second, unless craster had his first son and daughter with his sister (to which there is no reference off, since at least one of the daughters would have referred to the mother as "mother/aunt") the bloodline cannot be that pure to begin with...cuz think about it...he's not fuking his great-granddaugthers...at the max its granddaugthers...so wife, daughter, granddaugter.... basic biology, 2 generations are not enough to "purify" a bloodline and make some genes/traits wipe out others... its much simpler than all of that...WW's go around to different wildlings and kidnap their sons and leave the rest of the family unharmed...some wildlings figure that if they keep sacrificing their sons, they will be left unharmed...but remember, most wildlings are not as savage or evil as the southerners think...most refuse, only truly despicable creatures like craster would save his own ass by giving up dozens of sons/children... It's not Craster's blood, persay. It's what's IN Craster's blood. If we're going to open up the door to other wildlings (see Whitetree), then I'd like to assume not all wildlings are or royal lineage. I have to believe perhaps the ingredient is First Men Blood. That would be a gateway to all sorts of wildlings paying tribute. This would also satisfy your theory as well as mine, since They clearly go to others other than Craster. The Others are connected with First Men some way. "We'll build this wall, made of ice. For both of our kinds, fine. I never want to see the people of the south ever again, either. We'll make this wall of ice, but in return, we want one child per (timeframe) as payment. This agreement continues for as long as the Wall is up." Just thinking outside the box for a moment haha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pod The Impaler Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 Are they though? They have a social hierarchy based on this episode, and they have a purpose. Is it really mindless spawning of an army to conquer westeros? Or is it something more... Who's to say that is indicative of a social hierarchy? People assume that what they saw was literally the Night King. (perhaps the crown-like horns?) That may have been simply a revealing of The Others in their bodily form - more demonic, less of a rotting corpse in look. In any case, the Night King (in the books) was not one of the Others, but some NW commander who was seduced by some icy demoness (almost certainly one of the Others), sold her his soul, and then begat all kinds of unholy atrocities, until the King of Winter and King Beyond the Wall destroyed him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Areo Speedwagon Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 I wouldn't, we're getting good shit done here. Let's keep this up. The Wall, other than the keeps and forts, is essentially made of ice. Well, how is that possible? Only one race can control/exert/bring ice/possibly control it's formation (like a cryomancer theory). Bran The Builder = an Other? Not The Night's King, but a separate Other? Inversely, perhaps the Wall was erected by an Other, however Bran The Builder took credit for building it when he constructed keeps and forts all over it. It may have been just a wall of ice, and he saw this wall and thought, "hmm, let's build stuff on that big wall." Ha! And yeah, White men taking credit for the work of others is certainly nothing new. I kid, but not really. But what would this say of Storms End? Unrelated but worth keeping on the back burner. My previous thoughts on building the Wall was that if it truly was thousands of years old, then little by little, it would be very possible. But knowing there is magic inhered into the Wall itself? Maybe something else is going on. And the "watchers on the walls" also refers to people having been buried in the wall itself. Right? Or was that a theory i read on the boards that i've turned into something from the books? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blazfemur Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 Who's to say that is indicative of a social hierarchy? People assume that what they saw was literally the Night King. (perhaps the crown-like horns?) That may have been simply a revealing of The Others in their bodily form - more demonic, less of a rotting corpse in look. In any case, the Night King (in the books) was not one of the Others, but some NW commander who was seduced by some icy demoness (almost certainly one of the Others), sold her his soul, and then begat all kinds of unholy atrocities, until the King of Winter and King Beyond the Wall destroyed him. Now wait a minute, wait a second here. We're going by the word of HBO app, which may or may not have even been accurate to BEGIN with (i think it was, it seemed shady enought o be accurate). That being said. There were 13. The leader (hereby assumed, The Night's King) turned a living being. That living being became an Other. Based on logic, living beings become Others, dead beings become Wights. There are thousands of Wights. There were 13 Others (that appeared). My point is this, in regards to your statement: It's stated in the wiki, that The Night's King fell in love with an Other, and when he gave her his seed, he turned. I'm assuming, that's the moment, she turned him (the wiki states thats when he sold his soul, through that unholy union, so I'm basing this off of that). He was an Other, when the Night's Watch exiled him. That's what drove them to exile him. The fact he turned. He actually ruled The Night's Watch as king through the Nightfort for 13 (there's that number, YET again, it seems) years before being exiled with that female Other as his Queen. There's a lot of 13 here.. 13th lord commander (12 before him), reigning as king for 13 years, last hero was one and 12 others (13), and there were 13 of those Others at the end of the last episode. It all appears to be connected, 13 is a sacred number. If we're going to assume there are more than 13 Others, which as of this point is not confirmed (again, we never saw them in full force, this is the most we've seen so far) than the follow this social hierarchy: The Night's King, his 12 higher companions present at The Turning (i call it that, it's my term, i should trademark it), however many Others there are outside that circle, then Wights. Id say thats a social pyramid. If we're going to throw the assumption those 13 are The Night's King (as the Last Hero), and his 12 companions, which may or may not be the first 12 Lord Commanders before him, and there are only 13 of them, there'd still be social hierarchical difference between the King, his Circle, and the Wights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modesty Lannister Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 The number 13 there might be only a coincidence or a small reference to that guy being the 13th LC, the NK: something for us readers to know who he is, while Unsullied simply saw him as "White Walker boss". Because I'm sure that Craster has given the others more than 13 sons. I'm a bit lazy to do the maths now, but he had 19 wives. at some point, he might have had at least 10 of them in fertile state in one year. That means that in a year, he could have gotten 10 babies. If half of them were male, then in a year, he probably got 5 sons. And for how long has he being doing this? Gilly is around 15, isn't she? So, ten years of banging 10 women would give more than 13 sons. I'm sure either way that Craster's son is a special case. Those Others are "brothers" (half brothers but that doesn't matter). They have their blood "pure" in the same way the Targaryens had. I mean, their mother's had their father's blood. That could mean not something important for the "Ice" part of the equation but for the sons themselves, like, they have a strong bond or connection to each other, in the same way all the Stark kids (even Jon who might not be Ned's son) can warg and probably, will learn to communicate to each other in that way. They were able to locate Gilly's baby, it seems. Maybe they're able to see and feel each other due to their blood, something not all the Others can. Maybe Craster had to produce 13 sons per year? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 Maybe Craster had to produce 13 sons per year? Doubt it. He probably started with less women. It was impossible for him to produce 13 sons. Even if he had 13 children, one of them could have been a daughter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blazfemur Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 Not for nothing, you know how in the books Gilly took Mance's kid? To Old Town? And her baby was left at the Wall? The Wall currently owns the tribute that was supposedto have been given to The Others... If, in Jon's blasphemy, Melisandre should sacrifice that baby to R'hllor, thinking it having King's Blood (Mance's, because as of yet she doesn't know they were switched), then she'd be sacrificing something that belongs to The Others, to R'hllor. Taking something from, The Great Other, and giving it, to R'hllor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salmonsnake Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 It may or may not be relevant to the discussion at hand, but it'll be interesting to see if one of the mutineers were to survive next episode. If D&D are determined to troll us with unpublished implications, a single wretched 'stallion' left alive at the Keep, (when we are not simply relying on Coldhands) might serve as a hint whether the women are of sole importance, not Craster (or his father.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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