The Other Revelation Part II: Ice Scream Edition

[Hielo y Fuego]

theyr enot legit, are they? i mean, if youre not married in the eyes of gods and men, which, for all we know, is one single person. right? legally you cant have more than one wife unless that one dies. no?

...and, maybe he does have noble blood. we dont know who his father and mother were

Not in accordance to the ways of the Wildlings. After all, the Free Folk's version of a wedding is stealing a woman! The laws of the "kneelers" hold absolutely no meaning to the "Free Folk" beyond the Wall.

[Blazfemur]

Not in accordance to the ways of the Wildlings. After all, the Free Folk's version of a wedding is stealing a woman! The laws of the "kneelers" hold absolutely no meaning to the "Free Folk" beyond the Wall.

You do have a point. And Craster is considered a wildling, was he always so?

I'm tired. I think this thread made me take a nap after the strenuous mental workout, i cant recall.

I'm retiring Craster's Bastards. It was fun while it lasted, but the more i think about it, the more what if's become too numerous to consider it a plausible idea.

It's First Men blood. Has to be.

[Hielo y Fuego]

You do have a point. And Craster is considered a wildling, was he always so?

I'm tired. I think this thread made me take a nap after the strenuous mental workout, i cant recall.

I'm retiring Craster's Bastards. It was fun while it lasted, but the more i think about it, the more what if's become too numerous to consider it a plausible idea.

It's First Men blood. Has to be.

As far as I know, Craster's always been seen as a Wildling, yep. Then again, I've only read the books twice so far, so don't take my word for it.

I'm sure someone else will step in and clarify this, though.

[Blazfemur]

As far as I know, Craster's always been seen as a Wildling, yep. Then again, I've only read the books twice so far, so don't take my word for it.

I'm sure someone else will step in and clarify this, though.

cant go wrong with first men blood. would assume it's pretty numerous north of the wall.

[Hielo y Fuego]

cant go wrong with first men blood. would assume it's pretty numerous north of the wall.

I don't disagree. Not too sure if any regular human babe wouldn't do for the WWs, though...

[Frances Bean Corbray]

Not for nothing, you know how in the books Gilly took Mance's kid? To Old Town? And her baby was left at the Wall?

The Wall currently owns the tribute that was supposedto have been given to The Others...

If, in Jon's blasphemy, Melisandre should sacrifice that baby to R'hllor, thinking it having King's Blood (Mance's, because as of yet she doesn't know they were switched), then she'd be sacrificing something that belongs to The Others, to R'hllor. Taking something from, The Great Other, and giving it, to R'hllor.

Dun dun dun.

I don't necessarily know if you're on the right track, or even if I think you're on the right track.

But I want you to be on the right track, because I love the implications of this.

Forming crackpot theory:

Melisandre botches a R'hllorian resurrection of Jon Snow, using a false baby (Craster's First Men-blooded baby, and not king's blood from Mance) as sacrifice to bring him back. The baby belonged to The Others, not R'hllor. Because this is an agreement, there is interference.

Laid out Jon Snow, with his blade resting in his arms as often funeral ceremonies show, gets resurrected, as an Other, inadvertantly, and kills Melisandre with his sword, Longclaw. Because Melisandre is also a magical being, when Other Jon impales Melisandre, his coldened blade hits her warm, radiant flesh, it sends a spark through the blade and the blade itself takes flame.

Irony at it's finest, Melisandre gets killed, by Azor Ahai reborn, an Other.

:drool: :drool: :drool:

I like the crack of your pot, sir or madam.

[trgryn-strk-lnstr-mrtell]

While bloodlines might be important south of the wall, north of the wall it doesn't matter...like the dothraki, they follow strength, it doesnt matter who your father was..

If bloodlines do come into play, there's more chances of men mixing with CotF, giving them greenseers and wargs...their magic counteracts the magic of WW's...evidence is the wall and BR's cave...I say again, Crasters blood cannot be relevant

[Frances Bean Corbray]

While bloodlines might be important south of the wall, north of the wall it doesn't matter...like the dothraki, they follow strength, it doesnt matter who your father was..

If bloodlines do come into play, there's more chances of men mixing with CotF, giving them greenseers and wargs...their magic counteracts the magic of WW's...evidence is the wall and BR's cave...I say again, Crasters blood cannot be relevant

I've always gotten the impression that the in-universe maxim of "there's power in King's Blood" to be only half true.

After all, what makes it King's blood? Cuz there's a lot of folks calling themselves kings now, who weren't "born" kings, who have kids of their own. When does. Does Theon have King's Blood retroactively because Balon crowned himself? Did the Starks stop having kings blood when Torrhen knelt? Did it get re-promoted when Robb crowned himself?

There's magic in blood, period. Only death can pay for life.

Or maybe it's the Valyrian / First Men connection that gives the blood its magic properties, and thus the Starks and Targaryens have mojo whether they were ever crowned or not (in fact, the mojo probably gave them the advantage in conflicts that led to them being crowned, and "power in King's Blood" actually has the chicken and egg in the wrong order :) )

[trgryn-strk-lnstr-mrtell]

I've always gotten the impression that the in-universe maxim of "there's power in King's Blood" to be only half true.

After all, what makes it King's blood? Cuz there's a lot of folks calling themselves kings now, who weren't "born" kings, who have kids of their own. When does. Does Theon have King's Blood retroactively because Balon crowned himself? Did the Starks stop having kings blood when Torrhen knelt? Did it get re-promoted when Robb crowned himself?

There's magic in blood, period. Only death can pay for life.

Or maybe it's the Valyrian / First Men connection that gives the blood its magic properties, and thus the Starks and Targaryens have mojo whether they were ever crowned or not (in fact, the mojo probably gave them the advantage in conflicts that led to them being crowned, and "power in King's Blood" actually has the chicken and egg in the wrong order :) )

Very good points...iv never believed in "power in king's blood"...I definitely agree "only death can pay for life"....Targs have power in their blood from the magic of old valyria...Starks have it from the First men which likely came from the Children of the Forest

Melisandre burning the leeches worked (at times I like to believe it was one of her R'hollors true powers) because of the Targ blood Baratheons are said to have...Starks warging and greenseers are clear indication of CotF magic...Jojen has it probably like other northerners because they too mixed with CotF like the Starks...i have a theory that its stronger and more noticeable in the starks because the direwolves somehow brought the connection to their magic out...

Dany's magic combination of Valyrian blood plus "only death can pay for life" brought 3 dragons to life...im sure over the yrs plenty of others tried to hatch dragon eggs like Euron, at least one or more must have tried human sacrifices (judging by melisandres obsession with burning roberts bastard to awake the dragon at Dragonstone and what we know about some of the mad Targ kings)...but something about Danys valyrian blood magic must have been what made it work...she had no reason to walk in to that pyre other than to prove to a bunch of rag tag dothraki that fire cannot hurt her...must have been some deep buried instinct that made her walk in to the flame giving the dragons life....

[Slade7]

Very good points...iv never believed in "power in king's blood"...I definitely agree "only death can pay for life"....Targs have power in their blood from the magic of old valyria...Starks have it from the First men which likely came from the Children of the Forest

Melisandre burning the leeches worked (at times I like to believe it was one of her R'hollors true powers) because of the Targ blood Baratheons are said to have...Starks warging and greenseers are clear indication of CotF magic...Jojen has it probably like other northerners because they too mixed with CotF like the Starks...i have a theory that its stronger and more noticeable in the starks because the direwolves somehow brought the connection to their magic out...

Dany's magic combination of Valyrian blood plus "only death can pay for life" brought 3 dragons to life...im sure over the yrs plenty of others tried to hatch dragon eggs like Euron, at least one or more must have tried human sacrifices (judging by melisandres obsession with burning roberts bastard to awake the dragon at Dragonstone and what we know about some of the mad Targ kings)...but something about Danys valyrian blood magic must have been what made it work...she had no reason to walk in to that pyre other than to prove to a bunch of rag tag dothraki that fire cannot hurt her...must have been some deep buried instinct that made her walk in to the flame giving the dragons life....

I like it , what about the house of black and white?

[Dirk blitzen]

As ygritte said to jon it is the wildlings that woke the whitewalkers during their search for the horn that could blow away the Wall. If this is true then the NK is asleep or imprisoned for thousands of years unable to threaten the south.

So if the night's king hasn't been planning an attack for thousands of years and instead was just... sleeping....

Then my question is wtf put him to sleep for thousands of years? Could that tie into the tale of the night's king, how he was defeated?

[trgryn-strk-lnstr-mrtell]

I like it , what about the house of black and white?

them...i wouldn't classify what they can do as magic, more skill and science...like the potions arya was made to drink...however, House of Undying...that was clearly magic...Qauithe, must be magic...the maegi who caused khal drogos infection, must be magic (perhaps her magical blood also contributed to dragons birth?)

so its probably safe to say that across the narrow sea, Essos and the rest, there's genuine magic there that does not have anything to do with Targ or Stark blood...might be from old Valyria, might be something else?

just remembered the maegi's description of dany's unborn child, almost dragon in appearance. and now that dany's no longer barron makes me wonder what possible implications that could have on her future children....

[trgryn-strk-lnstr-mrtell]

So if the night's king hasn't been planning an attack for thousands of years and instead was just... sleeping....

Then my question is wtf put him to sleep for thousands of years? Could that tie into the tale of the night's king, how he was defeated?

2 things i wonder here

either him plotting for 8000 years or some magic done by the kings of the north + king beyond the wall + CotF putting a spell to keep him in hibernation, both lead to amazing possibilities.....but the second option, makes me wonder why they wouldnt just liquefy him with valyrian/dragon steel? maybe it doesn't work on him? maybe they didn't actually have access to them back then? something designed/created in the millenniums since specifically to battle WW when they return?

[The_Lone_Direwolf]

While bloodlines might be important south of the wall, north of the wall it doesn't matter...like the dothraki, they follow strength, it doesnt matter who your father was..

If bloodlines do come into play, there's more chances of men mixing with CotF, giving them greenseers and wargs...their magic counteracts the magic of WW's...evidence is the wall and BR's cave...I say again, Crasters blood cannot be relevant

I agree, I think it isn't Craster's blood that is important but Starks.

If the Night's King was in fact a Stark, brother of the King of Winter it would explain why the records were destroyed and his name shall not be spoken.

Maybe he was cursed and thrown beyond the Wall (maybe put to sleep in ice by the CoTF), also built by Stark Blood and his WW wife was locked in the tombs of Winterfell.

Maybe he just wants to get to his wife but because of the curse Starks are immune to WW ice power as Targaryen's are to Dragons/fire.

Maybe that is why there always needs to be a Stark in Winterfell, to act as a guardian to the tombs.

Now that Winterfell is essentially open for anyone the Night's King is making his move.

Just a thought.

[Vegeta_Greyjoy]

Now wait just a minute. Craster may have been a dick, bt it is in fact apparent, that those "rules" were set into place.

"Dont touch my daughters or ill kill you" was a common theme. Well, why?

If one of his daughters got pregnant, and it was a boy, but didn't have craster's full seed and was tainted by 50% of someone else's seed, then would that botch The Others' ceremony? Because it's not full Craster blood? (i say 50% because his daughters are inbred over and over, so id think by now theyre mostly craster blood to begin with, plus his 50%)

It seems to me, a bigger conspiracy, might be to maintain the blood of Craster, in male form. What is Craster's lineage, that makes his blood so special?

There may have been a purpose, beyond "Im a horny old guy that just fucks his daughters to get laid" idea. By fucking his daughters through the generations, it limits the blood of the original more, making his blood more potent, and each baby boy born, has the highest of his blood. Not only can his production be more frequent with the birth of each new daughter, but his blood would be more potent with each baby from that said daughter.

Yeah, i dont think it's "my daughters are special to me", but rather, "my boys are SUPER special to me, because they serve a purpose"

....do you think, Craster's ancestry, could be descended from, The Night's King and Night's Queen? And that his blood just needs a sort of, "ignition," to tap into that magic.

Hard to deny that's what's taking place here. As of 300AL the babes would have been more Craster and much less the original 'crone' wife.

I think people are being myopic in dismissing this, thinking that the Others are trying to build an army of ice babies. They already have an army. Perhaps what they need is a magician, or a White Priest.

[Modesty Lannister]

Why am I getting visions along the lines of,

"oh, dont bother naming that baby.. it's just an other baby, we'll give it to the gods.."

Their name, The Others.. were they the "Other" children? like, the second-born, or, bastardborn? All of Craster's children would technically be, bastards.

:o

JONS AN OTHER CHILD

Maybe that's the missing ingredient! Not First Men blood, but Bastard blood.

That would make all Others bastards. Maybe that's the key, though. The payment, is all your bastard boys.

I think that bastardy does not come into play north of the Wall at all, because there is no marriage. One just steals a woman. But, the Others have no name either. They are just the Others. We are men and women, there are CotF, giants. These creature's names are taboo as well.

[Modesty Lannister]

I agree, I think it isn't Craster's blood that is important but Starks.

If the Night's King was in fact a Stark, brother of the King of Winter it would explain why the records were destroyed and his name shall not be spoken.

Maybe he was cursed and thrown beyond the Wall (maybe put to sleep in ice by the CoTF), also built by Stark Blood and his WW wife was locked in the tombs of Winterfell.

Maybe he just wants to get to his wife but because of the curse Starks are immune to WW ice power as Targaryen's are to Dragons/fire.

Maybe that is why there always needs to be a Stark in Winterfell, to act as a guardian to the tombs.

Now that Winterfell is essentially open for anyone the Night's King is making his move.

Just a thought.

Not a bad one. We should look more into the stories about previous king's beyond the wall and underground tunnels they made. I remember from the show (I would have to look up if that is the case in the books) maester Luwin said to Theon there was a secret passage out of Winterfell leading to the Wall.

[Deadwood]

The laws of men change beyond the wall, so no bastards as those Southrons term it as such.

The Others might have things like names, but unlikely that humans would know them, since verbal communication seems negligible (just sort of screams and such :D ) at this point.

[Littlefinger of the Hand]

D&D and George showed us the moon. And we are staring at their fingers! There was no spoiler in the baby at all. We all knew their fate from the beginning... The real spoiler or better the... "glimpse" is of the altar and of someone being especially important amongst the WW. His horns give us a hint that he is a something like a king. So the real question is what is he.... A question that will be answered by george in the next books. Ignore craster's babies. They are random recruits of the WW that are used as means to advance the plot of both the series and books.

So if the night's king hasn't been planning an attack for thousands of years and instead was just... sleeping....

Then my question is wtf put him to sleep for thousands of years? Could that tie into the tale of the night's king, how he was defeated?

The great other was in a "sleep mode" for 8000 years. We don't know who put him to "sleep" but after his defeat he was put to sleep. Perhaps someone cut his ring- finger :D We have no clue at all. If he was awake and plotting for 8 millenniums he is just a harmless moron who got his plans ruined about 800 times because the status quo of westeros was changing drastically all the time and he had to restart all his schemes over and over again... Even Ned Stark was a better plotter than this :)......

[Joseph Nobles]

My vote for what woke the Night's King from his slumber is the Doom of Valeria.

I figure Craster has provided around a hundred sons at least to the Others. There at the end, he had nineteen wives. If he kept them pregnant, that's a birth rate of 2 a month, roughly, and at a 50/50 gender ratio, that's a son and a daughter every month. Sons went straight to the sacrifice and became something that could easily survive the harsh climate beyond the Wall, but daughters had to grow up. They then had to survive childbirth. A survival rate of 18% to 20% for the daughters sounds plausible to me.

As for Mel and Jon, I think Mel's definitely going to try to burn Gilly's son once she finds out about Jon's duplicity and the nature of Craster's sacrifices. Jon may have ironically given her a better candidate for her own sacrifices - the brother to a large host of the Others. And she would present it to Jon in exactly those terms. You can cut a huge chunk out of the Others and save all of humanity, Jon Snow. You just have to burn this baby named after your best friend. What are you going to do?