Who's Wylla, really?

[Ygrain]

Agreed

I think the key part of his character will be staying true to his ideals and what Ned taught him, even if Ned isn't his father.

If Jon leaves the wall, he leaves it a completely different character than the one we love, or on the run. And even on the run, his top priority is to get back to the wall to defend it. People always babble about Jon dying releasing him from his vows, but even if he 'died', it's not Jon's life or word that is tied up in the wall. It's his honor, which he will gladly die for as Ned would have.

He is more compromising than Ned as well, which probably means he will live longer.

He might well be willing to die for his honour, but would he let Westeros die for it, as well?

Are we to believe that a wetnurse is privvy to secrets Ned won't even share with his closet confidante and wife. He snapped at Cat for prying too much when Cat asked about Ashara. It would make sense for Wylla to be the source for that gossip spreading. Maybe that's what she was told or what she figures to be true.

Correct me if I'm mistaken but Wylla left the north after Jon no longer needed her services. If she was at the ToJ and knows everything, would Ned let her leave and go all the way back to Dorne. If she let something slip there'd be no way to contain it.

IMO, it makes no sense for Wylla to be anything other than a for-hire individual. She knows as much about Jon's parentage as everybody else in Westereos.

If the wetnurse was indeed at ToJ, she knew even before Ned did, and as she serves as a cover-up, I don't think she was the same wetnurse that Jon had at Winterfell.

[mambru]

I think that Wylla was a servant of Daynes, and that she was sent to ToJ by Ashara, or requested by Arthur, so she would take care of Lyanna. I think she and Howland are "they" who found Ned near Lyanna.

Possibly. I know that Wylla has lived at Starfall for the past fifteen years, where everybody believes her to be the mother of Jon Snow by Ned. But the more I think about it, the more I feel sure she didn't start out at Starfall as a handy wet nurse that Ashara or Arthur procured for Lyanna.

Why not? Because that would have meant she ALREADY had a child of her own that she was feeding (or else she wouldn't be lactating and suitable as a wet-nurse). If those at Starfall knew her from before she was sent to Lyanna, they would KNOW that she could NOT have been Jon's mother, because she had a child of her own older than newborn Jon would have been, and was lactating at the same time she was supposed to have been knocked up by Ned (who was fighting a war FAR AWAY). If she was a old servant of Starfall before the household at the ToJ was installed, then ALL the servants would have known that she wasn't Jon Snow's mother, and the secret could not have been kept so completely.

IMO, that probably means Wylla was installed at Starfall only AFTER the ToJ fell. She was presented as the mother of Ned Stark's natural son, and kept up that identity ever since with no one being the wiser. The question remains - where was she before? If she was Ned's fisherwoman girlfriend, was she a camp follower in Ned's army, nursing her child while Ned tried to figure out how to respectably take care of his responsibilities toward them? Or did she, with Ned's child, find her way to someplace near the ToJ and just HAPPEN to be hired by some KG in disguise as a wet-nurse? That would be a credulity-straining coincidence if it happened by accident - but what if Ned knew about the ToJ and sent her on purpose to keep an eye on Lyanna?

Mind you, I don't really think Ned is either slick enough to smoothly infiltrate the ToJ like that or coldblooded enough to use his bastard son and his mother to do so - I'm just tossing it around as a possibility.

Maybe - most likely - Wylla the wet nurse at the ToJ and Ned's fishergirl were two different people. But still, two questions remain. What happened to Wylla the wet nurse's OWN child when Jon was born? It would give the game away to have Wylla show up at Starfall with TWO babies of different ages who couldn't possibly have been brothers. Ned's not the kind of man who would have a child killed to support a fake story - but then, what DID happen to it? Did it fortuitously die?

The other question - if Ned's fishergirl and Wylla were two different people - what happened to her and to Ned's own real bastard child?

As to the idea that Ned couldn't POSSIBLY have had sex with anyone else besides Catelyn, and therefore the Sisters fishergirl story couldn't POSSIBLY be true - Ned was a teenager, wasn't he? His father and brother had just died horribly. After the fishergirl lost her father in the storm and after the shock of both of them nearly losing their lives themselves, I think it's perfectly believable that they went a bit too far in mutually comforting each other that ONE time (rather like Robb and Jeyne).

[Mladen]

Possibly. I know that Wylla has lived at Starfall for the past fifteen years, where everybody believes her to be the mother of Jon Snow by Ned. But the more I think about it, the more I feel sure she didn't start out at Starfall as a handy wet nurse that Ashara or Arthur procured for Lyanna.

TBH, there are many ways we can go with this... But, if we believe that Lyanna was pregnant with a child, which I wholeheartedly believe, then the logical assumption is that Tower of Joy would have a maester, a wetnurse, basically an establishment prepared to take care of the pregnant woman. I doubt that Rhaegar left pregnant Lyanna alone with three knights. So, my assumption is that Wylla was procured by Daynes or Rhaegar, either as a servant to Tower of Joy or later when Lyanna got pregnant as a wetnurse. Possibly, even the mix of the both. Since Tower of Joy isn't near Starfall, her absence (if she was procured by Daynes) would leave reasonable window for pregnancy to happen, so the story would be believable. Or that when Ned came to Starfall, Ashara took her as a servant and Ned left with the child, thus leaving people to speak about the baby Wylla gave Ned. That would also explain how Ashara got meddled into all of that.

[MyLittleFinger]

Jon Snow's mom.

[Eyron Stark]

I always wondered why Jon never acted on the Wylla lead, and tried finding her for answers.

GRRM Could have had a year to make Jon go out and adventure and experience like Benjen said, before going to the boring Wall

[shearstone]

I subscribe to the Ned and Ashara love theory so It wouldn't surprise me if Robert bringing up Jon like that doesn't bring back memories of Ashara. As for why he would name Wylla instead of her well simple he didn't want to shame her.

[Mladen]

I always wondered why Jon never acted on the Wylla lead, and tried finding her for answers.

GRRM Could have had a year to make Jon go out and adventure and experience like Benjen said, before going to the boring Wall

Because Jon never knew who his mother was.

[The Wolves]

Because Jon never knew who his mother was.

I think Ned put all the whispers of who Jon's might be out. I think a lot of people had ideas on who his mother was but it was t something talked about a lot at Winterfell.

[mambru]

TBH, there are many ways we can go with this... But, if we believe that Lyanna was pregnant with a child, which I wholeheartedly believe, then the logical assumption is that Tower of Joy would have a maester, a wetnurse, basically an establishment prepared to take care of the pregnant woman. I doubt that Rhaegar left pregnant Lyanna alone with three knights. So, my assumption is that Wylla was procured by Daynes or Rhaegar, either as a servant to Tower of Joy or later when Lyanna got pregnant as a wetnurse. Possibly, even the mix of the both. Since Tower of Joy isn't near Starfall, her absence (if she was procured by Daynes) would leave reasonable window for pregnancy to happen, so the story would be believable.

But if Wylla was a longtime servant at Starfall, and was sent suddenly by her masters on a hush-hush errand for which she had to take her own baby (an absolutely necessary accessory for a wet-nurse, to keep her lactating till the baby she's hired to take care of arrives) - is the explanation "I was sent up into battlefields - with my baby - to become Ned Stark's slampiece. That was the errand the masters thought was so important they sent me and a maester and a midwife for," REALLY ADEQUATE?

IMO, it would take a lot of work to make that a believable story - especially if Wylla had never seen Ned before the Tower fell, but had to bone up on facts of what Ned was doing 9 months ago when and where they were supposed to have met and had their fling (and WHY she had had to bring her baby along for it). On the whole, it would be hard to keep up such an improvised story for fifteen years without somebody questioning it.

It would be easier if Wylla were in fact Ned's one-time lover and baby-mama - hence under questioning most of what she would be offering would be the truth. Yes, she did meet Ned and had a fling and a child. The only thing she'd omit would be that the child Ned is taking to Winterfell is Lyanna's, not hers and Ned's. And so I wonder - what did happen to Ned's child by the fishergirl?

[Mladen]

But if Wylla was a longtime servant at Starfall, and was sent suddenly by her masters on a hush-hush errand for which she had to take her own baby (an absolutely necessary accessory for a wet-nurse, to keep her lactating till the baby she's hired to take care of arrives) - is the explanation "I was sent up into battlefields - with my baby - to become Ned Stark's slampiece. That was the errand the masters thought was so important they sent me and a maester and a midwife for," REALLY ADEQUATE?

IMO, it would take a lot of work to make that a believable story - especially if Wylla had never seen Ned before the Tower fell, but had to bone up on facts of what Ned was doing 9 months ago when and where they were supposed to have met and had their fling (and WHY she had had to bring her baby along for it). On the whole, it would be hard to keep up such an improvised story for fifteen years without somebody questioning it.

It would be easier if Wylla were in fact Ned's one-time lover and baby-mama - hence under questioning most of what she would be offering would be the truth. Yes, she did meet Ned and had a fling and a child. The only thing she'd omit would be that the child Ned is taking to Winterfell is Lyanna's, not hers and Ned's. And so I wonder - what did happen to Ned's child by the fishergirl?

There is a chance she was procured by Rhaegar and she went with Ned to Starfall where she stayed.

Also, who would question some servant's story? Yes, she was supposed to have a bastard with Highlord, but given that he was married and had children of his own, people forget these things rather soon. Just remember Jon Connington's case.

[mambru]

Also, who would question some servant's story? Yes, she was supposed to have a bastard with Highlord, but given that he was married and had children of his own, people forget these things rather soon. Just remember Jon Connington's case.

Other servants, who'd likely be just as curious when one of their own has an affair with a Lord Paramount as any noble would be to learn the same. Servant's gossip breaks through the barriers of class.

[Longspear Ryk]

what if Wylla is septa lenore

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Wylla, like Ashara Dayne, is there to distract us from the true that is Jon's real parentage.

Reader, after GoT:

"Man... so... the promise, the kidnapping, the "he's my blood"... .maybe, he's Lyanna's son?? Maybe Ashara but..."

Reader after Storms:

"Wow... this kid Eddard said that... I mean... it wasn't Lyanna? He sounds so sure of what he has said... But... I'm confused.. oh, clever GRRM".

[Mladen]

Other servants, who'd likely be just as curious when one of their own has an affair with a Lord Paramount as any noble would be to learn the same. Servant's gossip breaks through the barriers of class.

I know that... But she could have kept her mouth shut not going into details... Keeping the story simple is one way to maintain the lie. Although we are now just speculating without any basis...

[Ygrain]

I think Ned put all the whispers of who Jon's might be out. I think a lot of people had ideas on who his mother was but it was t something talked about a lot at Winterfell.

Nope, he put down just the whispers about Ashara. Sansa hears a rumour that Jon's mother was commonborn but there is never a name attached.

[Aetta]

Total fanfic: Wylla of High Hermitage is Darkstar's mother, still lactating. Her lover was Ser Arthur, and when Howland saw Arthur he said baby Gerold's/Wylla's name to Arthur, stunning and shaming him, and allowing Ned a moment to kill him.

OK, that's fooey. I really think there is not going to be a concrete backstory to her propensity for breastfeeding, other than the fact that she is just a vehicle Ned uses to confuscate-and lactate, and complicate, and deviate...and...mediate...and now I've got that stupid INXS song in my head.

[corbon]

Now we're sure that Ned's almost certainly lying about he and Wylla being Jon's parents. But what about his shame in that dialogue above? Is Ned completely innocent of dishonoring Catelyn? Is Honest Ned that good an improviser and liar that he could just make all that up and be convincing? IMO, his emotion over his infidelity reads as genuine - even if he's misled everyone about the result of it. So maybe Ned and Wylla really were an item.

His shame is perfectly answered by the fact that Ned has dishonoured Catelyn by bringing Jon to live with them and claiming him as his son, whether he actually dishonoured her by sleeping with another woman or not.

Thus there is no indication at all here that Ned and Wylla were an item. Indeed, even Robert subconciously knows the truth about the depths of his friend's honour, he just is fooled by the lie.

I'm pretty sure Ned has a bastard...it just isn't Jon.

Based on what?

Are we to believe that a wetnurse is privvy to secrets Ned won't even share with his closet confidante and wife.

Absolutely. Remeber that this wetnurse, if she was privy to the truth of Jon's birth, was already privy to a much greater secret than that he is not Ned Stark's son, and was almost certainly chosen precisely for the ability to keep this secret - even from the King (Aerys, let alone Robert!).

Correct me if I'm mistaken but Wylla left the north after Jon no longer needed her services. If she was at the ToJ and knows everything, would Ned let her leave and go all the way back to Dorne. If she let something slip there'd be no way to contain it.

Why would she let anything slip? Her primary loyalty must be towards Jon Targaryen over anyone else, and to Jon Snow her milk-son after that. Letting anything slip gets him killed. And since she was almost certainly chosen for her loyalty and discretion...

And if she does let anything slip, the Daynes are likely to want to keep it secret from Robert almost as much as Ned.

Basically its kill her, turn into a tyrant, or take the risk, which she has no doubt already been specifically chosen to conceal anyway.

IMO, it makes no sense for Wylla to be anything other than a for-hire individual. She knows as much about Jon's parentage as everybody else in Westereos.

It makes perfect sense for her to be a Dayne retainer, loyal to the Targaryens.

Possibly. I know that Wylla has lived at Starfall for the past fifteen years, where everybody believes her to be the mother of Jon Snow by Ned. But the more I think about it, the more I feel sure she didn't start out at Starfall as a handy wet nurse that Ashara or Arthur procured for Lyanna.

Why not? Because that would have meant she ALREADY had a child of her own that she was feeding (or else she wouldn't be lactating and suitable as a wet-nurse).

Simply wrong.

She must have had a child once. Since them she could operate for literally decades as a professional wetnurse, even keeping lactation going between babies (other people's babies, not necessarily her own) by self-milking.

All that follows from this false conslusion is therefore also false. Or at least, not necessary.

As to the idea that Ned couldn't POSSIBLY have had sex with anyone else besides Catelyn, and therefore the Sisters fishergirl story couldn't POSSIBLY be true - Ned was a teenager, wasn't he? His father and brother had just died horribly. After the fishergirl lost her father in the storm and after the shock of both of them nearly losing their lives themselves, I think it's perfectly believable that they went a bit too far in mutually comforting each other that ONE time (rather like Robb and Jeyne).

Except Robert, who knew him best, really doesn't think so, in general.

And the Fisher-girl can't be true due to timeline, not morals

But if Wylla was a longtime servant at Starfall, and was sent suddenly by her masters on a hush-hush errand for which she had to take her own baby (an absolutely necessary accessory for a wet-nurse, to keep her lactating till the baby she's hired to take care of arrives) - is the explanation "I was sent up into battlefields - with my baby - to become Ned Stark's slampiece. That was the errand the masters thought was so important they sent me and a maester and a midwife for," REALLY ADEQUATE?

Thats effectively a straw question, not deliberately, but it rests on false assumptions that lead to it, whereas take them out and the question never arises.

IMO, it would take a lot of work to make that a believable story - especially if Wylla had never seen Ned before the Tower fell, but had to bone up on facts of what Ned was doing 9 months ago when and where they were supposed to have met and had their fling (and WHY she had had to bring her baby along for it). On the whole, it would be hard to keep up such an improvised story for fifteen years without somebody questioning it.

It would be easier if Wylla were in fact Ned's one-time lover and baby-mama - hence under questioning most of what she would be offering would be the truth. Yes, she did meet Ned and had a fling and a child. The only thing she'd omit would be that the child Ned is taking to Winterfell is Lyanna's, not hers and Ned's. And so I wonder - what did happen to Ned's child by the fishergirl?

All predicated on probably false assumptions, so unnecessary to explain.

Its very simple.

Wylla is chosen from Starfall as a very loyal and extremely discreet wetnurse, probably sevral months before the birth of Jon. She doesn't need to have a child of her own at this time, only have been nursing her own, or someone else's child fairly recently and/or been self-milking to maintain her possibility of finding further work as a wetnurse.

There is no child of hers, or if there is its old enough to be handed to another so that she can do her job.

She assists at ToJ and Ned uses her as Jon;s wetnurse since she is already in on all secrets and no bodubt chosen for loyalty etc,and anyway would understand the risk to the baby should she talk. The best thing is if people assume she is the mother.

With several months away from Starfall, she could easily claim that the child was her own and that she hid the pregnancy because of the father if people wondered why she didn't seem pregnant before. Besides which, she can easily be from outside the actual Starfall household itself, so most people there may not even be pre-familiar with her recent history.

I don't see any reason why Ned would chane wetnurse at Starfall, and no reason why she couldn't be the wetnurse sent to Winterfell with Jon. No one there has any clue about her or her past, beyond what she tells them. After Jon is weaned she is returned to Starfall as Catelyn certainly doesn't want her associating with the other Stark kids so there is no place for her at Winterfell once Jon doesn't need her.

There are no problems with this scenario.

There are no clues Ned actually had a bastard, or slept with anyone, that aren't already answered by the R+L=J theory.

There is no added security risk because she was already in on the much bigger secret and no doubt chosen for her loyalty and discretion in the first place. And her second loyalty is likely to be to the baby anyway.

There is no need for her child to be involved, or for her to even have a child, because the logic requiring that need is based on false assumptions.

There is no inconsistancy with her story back at Starfall both because Starfall people may not have known her well before, or been around her before, and because there is enough time and uncertainty for any general questions to fade into the background, especially against the backdrop of the much bigger events happening at the time she returns to Starfall after ToJ (Dawn is returned, Arthur is therefore dead, Ashara appears to commit suicide, the royal dynasty has changed etc etc).

[mambru]

There are no problems with this scenario.

There are no clues Ned actually had a bastard, or slept with anyone, that aren't already answered by the R+L=J theory.

Wait a minute...because Rhaegar and Lyanna had a baby, that proves Ned never slept with anyone but Cat? How? You'll have to walk me through the logic of your conclusion, because I'm not getting your reasoning.

Yes, it's likely Ned told an untrue story about Jon being his bastard son, when he wasn't - when he was in fact Lyanna's by Rhaegar. How does that prove that Ned's chastity remained pure and unsmirched throughout Robert's Rebellion? One thing has nothing to do with another.

And the Fisher-girl can't be true due to timeline, not morals

Okay, so are you saying that Lord Borrell's oddly specific story (about Ned fleeing incognito to Winterfell to call his banners by hitching a ride from the Fingers to the Sisters in a fisherman's boat, then being rescued by the fisherman's daughter when he drowns in a storm and having a brief romance with her before leaving her with a bag of silver and a pregnancy) is a total fabrication? Are you saying that the story is impossible, baseless gossip, because Ned's timeline PROVES he could not possibly have been anywhere near the Sisters at the time? Can you show me in the books why you're so sure it's false? Because I am genuinely interested in settling that particular question one way or another.

[FalseSpring]

If Jon was a targ why not take him as a ward of some other random house or a squire?

I guess I've been a believer of R+L for so long that I'm starting to doubt it.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

It's difficult to say, with all those red herrings GRRM keeps throwing left and right. We have Lyanna, Ashara Dayne, Wylla and Septa Lemore, and we have Jon Snow, Aegon (who looks younger than he should)and even Meera Reed (the same age as Jon, she's supposed to be Howland Reed's daughter, and Howland Reed was there when Lyanna died giving birth...).

Any combination of those mothers and children is possible. For example:

1 Jon could be the son of Brandon and Ashara, who Ned offered to raise as his own passing him as his own, out of loyalty towards Brandon.

2 fAegon could be the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar, who Ashara took to Essos in secret because he looked too much like Rhaegar to be allowed to stay in Westeros.

3Meera Reed could be the daughter of Ned and Wylla, who lived with her mother in Starfall until the later died and then Howland offered to foster her.

1. Not old enough. Brandon died more than a year before Jon was born.

2. I suppose that one is possible.

3. No. Meera is 100% crannog. No way she is not the daughter of Howland Reed.