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Angalin

R+L=J v.80

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Reference guide

The Tower of the Hand has an excellent analysis of this theory:
Jon Snow's Parents

And Westeros' Citadel also provides a summary:
Jon Snow's Parents

A Wiki of Ice and Fire:
Jon Snow Theories


Frequently Asked Questions:

How can Jon be a Targaryen if he has a burned hand?
Targaryens are not immune to fire. Aerion Brightflame died drinking wildfire. Aegon V and his son Duncan are thought to have died in a fire-related event at Summerhall. Rhaenyra was eaten by Aegon II's dragon, presumably roasted by fire before the dragon took a bite. Viserys died when he was crowned with molten gold. Dany suffered burns from the fire pit incident at the end of A Dance with Dragons. Finally, the author has stated outright that Targaryens are not immune to fire. Jon's burned hand does not mean he is ineligible to be part Targaryen. For more information about the myth of Targaryen fire immunity, see this thread.

How can Jon be a Targ if he doesn't have silver hair and purple eyes?
Not all Targaryens had the typical Valyrian look. Alysanne had blue eyes. Baelor Breakspear and his son(s) had the Dornish look. Some of the Great Bastards did not have typical Valyrian features. Jon's own half-sister Rhaenys had her mother's Dornish look.

If Jon isn't Ned's son, then why does he look so much like him?
Much is made over the fact that Arya looks like Lyanna, and Jon looks like Arya. Ned and Lyanna shared similar looks.

How can Jon be half-Targ if he has a direwolf?
Ned's trueborn children are half Stark and half Tully. Being half Tully didn't prevent them from having a direwolf so there is no reason to think being half Targaryen would prevent Jon from having a direwolf. If Lyanna is his mother, then he's still half Stark. Furthermore, there is already a character who is half Targaryen and half blood of the First Men and was a skinchanger: Bloodraven.

Since Rhaegar was already married, wouldn't Jon still be a bastard?
The evidence that Jon is legitimate is that Targaryens have a history of polygamous marriages which makes it a possibility that Rhaegar had two wives. Three Kingsguards were present at the Tower of Joy when Ned arrived. Even after Ned said that Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon were dead and Viserys had fled to Dragonstone, the Kingsguard opted to stay at the Tower of Joy stating they were obeying their Kingsguard vow. The heart of a Kingsguard's vow is to protect the king. With Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon dead, the new king would have been Viserys, unless Lyanna's child was legitimate making him the new king of the Targaryen dynasty.
For a comprehensive analysis of Jon's legitimacy, see the detailed explanations in the two linked articles.

But polygamy hadn't been practiced in centuries, is it still even legal?
The practice was never made illegal and there may have been some less prominent examples after Maegor, as stated in this SSM. Furthermore, Jorah suggests it to Dany as a viable option.

Weren't the Kingsguard at Tower of Joy on the basis of an order from Aerys, to guard Lyanna as a hostage?
Aerys was sane enough to realize how taking someone hostage works even at the end of the Rebellion, and he would hardly miss the opportunity to bring Ned and Robert in line any time after the situation started to look really serious.
Furthermore, regardless of on whose order the Kingsguard might have stayed at Tower of Joy, they would still be in dereliction of their duty to guard the new king.

This theory is too obvious and too many people believe it to be fact. How can it be true?
The theory is not obvious to the majority of readers. Some will get it on first read, most will not. Keep in mind that readers who go to online fan forums, such as this one, represent a very small minority of the A Song of Ice and Fire readership. Also, A Game of Thrones has been out since 1996. That's more than 17 years of readers being able to piece together this mystery.

Why doesn't Ned ever think about Lyanna being Jon's mother?
Ned doesn't think about anyone as being his mother. He says the name 'Wylla' to Robert, but does not actively think that Wylla is the mother. He also doesn't think of Jon as his son. There are numerous mysteries in the series, and Jon's parentage is one of those. If Ned thought about Jon being Lyanna's son, it would not be a mystery.

Why should we care who Jon's parents are? Will Jon care? Who cares if he's legitimate?
Once one accepts that the evidence is conclusive and that Jon's parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna and that he is most probably legitimate, these become the important questions.

Previous editions:

Please click on the spoiler below to reveal links to all previous editions of this thread.

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread one)

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread two)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part III)” (thread three)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part IV)” (thread four)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part V)” (thread five)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part VI)” (thread six)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Thread Part VII” (thread seven)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part VIII” (thread eight)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part IX” (thread nine)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna =Jon Thread, Part X”(thread ten)

The R+L=J thread, part XI” (thread eleven)

The R+L=J thread, part XII” (thread twelve)

R+L=J Part XXIII” (thread thirteen)

R+L=J Part XXIV” (thread fourteen)

R+L=J XXV” (thread fifteen)

R+L=J v.16” (thread sixteen)

R+L=J v.17” (thread seventeen)

R+L=J v.18” (thread eighteen)

R+L=J v.19” (thread nineteen)

R+L=J v.20” (thread twenty)

R+L=J v.21” (thread twenty-one)

R+L=J v.22” (thread twenty-two)

R+L=J v.22a” (thread twenty-two (a))

R+L=J v.23” (thread twenty-three)

R+L=J v.24” (thread twenty-four)

R+L=J v.25” (thread twenty-five)

R+L=J v.26” (thread twenty-six)

R+L=J v.27” (thread twenty-seven)

R+L=J v.28” (thread twenty-eight)

R+L=J v.29” (thread twenty-nine)

R+L=J v.30” (thread thirty)

R+L=J v.31” (thread thirty-one)

R+L=J v.32” (thread thirty-two)

R+L=J #33” (thread thirty-three)

R+L=J v.34” (thread thirty-four)

R+L=J v.35” (thread thirty-five)

R+L=J v.36” (thread thirty-six)

R+L=J v.37” (thread thirty-seven)

R+L=J v.38” (thread thirty-eight)

R+L=J v.39” (thread thirty-nine)

"R+L=J v.40" (thread forty)

"R+L=J v. 41" (thread forty-one)

"R+L=J v.42" (thread forty-two)

"R+L=J v.43" (thread forty-three)

"R+L=J v.44" (thread forty-four)

"R+L=J v.45" (thread forty-five)

"R+L=J v.46" (thread forty-six)

"R+L=J v.47" (thread forty-seven)

"R+L=J v.48" (thread forty-eight)

"R+L=J v.49" (thread forty-nine)

"R+L=J v.50" (thread fifty)

"R+L=J v.51" (thread fifty-one)


"R+L=J v.52" (thread fifty-two)

"R+L=J v.53" (thread fifty-three)

"R+L=J v.54" (thread fifty=four)

"R+L=J v.55" (thread fifty-five)

"R+L=J v.56" (thread fifty-six)

"R+L=J v.57" (thread fifty-seven)

"R+L=J v 58" (thread fifty-eight)

"R+L=J v 59" (thread fifty-nine)

"R+L=J v 60" (thread sixty)

"R+L=J v 61" (thread sixty-one)

"R+L=J v 62" (thread sixty-two)

"R+L=J v 63" (thread sixty-three)

"R+L=J v 64" (thread sixty four)

"R+L=J v 65" (thread sixty five)

R+L=J v 66 (thread sixty-six)

"R+L=J v 67" (thread sixty-seven)

"R+L=J v 68" (thread sixty-eight)

"R+L=J v 69" (thread sixty-nine)

"R+L=J v 70" (thread seventy)
"R+L=J v 71" (thread seventy-one)

"R+L=J v 72" (thread seventy-two)

"R+L=J v 73" (thread seventy-three)

"R+L=J v 74" (thread seventy-four)

"R+L=J v 75" (thread seventy-five)

"R+L=J v 76" (thread seventy-six)

"R+L=J v.77" (thread seventy-seven)

"R+L=J v. 78" (thread seventy-eight)

"R+L=J v. 79" (thread seventy-nine)

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80 already? I hope we don't get to 100 before the info is either confirmed or refuted...



Hurry up, George!


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It's probably among the thousands of pages but I have limited search capabilities right now.



I do believe Lyanna is Jon's mother, but I was just wondering what could be an alternative explanation for the fever that took her? It went past my head on the first read but on the second it seems quite obvious to figure out, unless Eddard didn't tell anyone she died of a fever.


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Thing is, we have no idea what official story he gave as a reason of her death. Being the honourable man, he might even told the truth: she succumbed to fever.


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In response to chebysov from the previous version of the thread. There was more to the crackpot, I wish I knew how to post a quote from a different thread so that you can get the full scope of my thought, it wasn't too bad and given everyone's nature that was involved was completely plausible.

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It's probably among the thousands of pages but I have limited search capabilities right now.

I do believe Lyanna is Jon's mother, but I was just wondering what could be an alternative explanation for the fever that took her? It went past my head on the first read but on the second it seems quite obvious to figure out, unless Eddard didn't tell anyone she died of a fever.

What did Rhaella died of? Fever as well? Did GRRM ever spoke on the matter? Joanna Lannister?

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What did Rhaella died of? Fever as well? Did GRRM ever spoke on the matter? Joanna Lannister?

I don't think we ever got the specifics.

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Ygrain, I have never thought that Ned would return to the north via King's Landing. First he is mightily pissed at Robert still, and with Jon and Lyanna he is going to want to avoid him as much as possible. The journey to Starfall might well be covered by the return of Dawn to House Dayne, but it also affords him an opportunity to send a raven to King's Landing and take passage on a ship. The choice of wording would need to be clever, but he only needs to mention that he is taking his sister's bones back to Winterfell for interment. He may even have addressed the message to Jon Aryn instead of Robert, because of the rawness of their relations. I can see them getting together during the Greyjoy rebellion or at Robert's wedding to Cersei, over some ale (in the local whorehouse, given Robert's proclivities) and shedding a tear or two while patching up the friendship of old. This also explains why Ned did not go to Riverrun on his return trip to pick up Catelyn and Robb. As I recall things, Catelyn arrived at Winterfell during Ned's absence and Jon was already present with his wetnurse.


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I just hope that we will get the final R+L=J resultion IN THE BOOKS not in the show that's all. :}

God I hope so too! I may even boycott the later seasons of the show to avoid it lol

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Ygrain, I have never thought that Ned would return to the north via King's Landing. First he is mightily pissed at Robert still, and with Jon and Lyanna he is going to want to avoid him as much as possible. The journey to Starfall might well be covered by the return of Dawn to House Dayne, but it also affords him an opportunity to send a raven to King's Landing and take passage on a ship. The choice of wording would need to be clever, but he only needs to mention that he is taking his sister's bones back to Winterfell for interment. He may even have addressed the message to Jon Aryn instead of Robert, because of the rawness of their relations. I can see them getting together during the Greyjoy rebellion or at Robert's wedding to Cersei, over some ale (in the local whorehouse, given Robert's proclivities) and shedding a tear or two while patching up the friendship of old. This also explains why Ned did not go to Riverrun on his return trip to pick up Catelyn and Robb. As I recall things, Catelyn arrived at Winterfell during Ned's absence and Jon was already present with his wetnurse.

I do think that them reconciling over Lyanna's death would require them to be face to face..

And with Robert having gone to war to win Lyanna back, Ned could hardly say "oops, I've send her bones to Winterfell already", I think. Robert would want to see her remains, imo.

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Does anyone know of a good way to present the evidence that R+L=J to someone who hates all Targaryen because they are all "evil." Or a way that doesn't seem circumstantial? Got an extremely stubborn brother.


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Does anyone know of a good way to present the evidence that R+L=J to someone who hates all Targaryen because they are all "evil." Or a way that doesn't seem circumstantial? Got an extremely stubborn brother.

"Jon is a Targaryen. Is Jon evil? No. Maester Aemon is a Targaryen. Is he evil? No. Baelor Breakspear was a Targaryen. Was he evil? No."

You get the idea. And this comes from someone who, on the whole, is rather anti-Targ herself.

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"Jon is a Targaryen. Is Jon evil? No. Maester Aemon is a Targaryen. Is he evil? No. Baelor Breakspear was a Targaryen. Was he evil? No."

You get the idea. And this comes from someone who, on the whole, is rather anti-Targ herself.

Yeah my brother has a tendency to judge a whole family by a few bad members. If I out Maester Aemon and Baelor Breakspear he will say look at Viserys. Look at Aerys. Look at Rhaegar. And he thinks R+L=J is just a theory to make one of the last few good guys a Targaryen.

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Does anyone know of a good way to present the evidence that R+L=J to someone who hates all Targaryen because they are all "evil." Or a way that doesn't seem circumstantial? Got an extremely stubborn brother.

Well, evidence and personal opinion on the whole family (which by itself is absurd) have nothing to do with each other, so if he discards evidence because of personal opinion of the family, I'm not sure there's much you can do.

I'm saying it because I have friends like this too, and I more or less dislike the Targs in most cases.

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Yeah my brother has a tendency to judge a whole family by a few bad members. If I out Maester Aemon and Baelor Breakspear he will say look at Viserys. Look at Aerys. Look at Rhaegar. And he thinks R+L=J is just a theory to make one of the last few good guys a Targaryen.

I don't think we know yet if Rhaegar qualifies as a "bad" member. There are good and bad people in virtually every single family, and this one's no different.

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