R+L=J v.80

[corbon]

To be fair, The Laughing Knight does definitely hint that Ned at least fancied Ashara

No, it actually does not, if you re-read it closely.

All it says is that (Ned) was too shy to leave his bench (not even shy of Ashara Dayne, just too shy to leave his bench and participate in the party!) until his older brother (Brandon) got a girl (Ashara) to dance with him.

It doesn't actually suggest that either Ned or Ashara wanted to dance with each other or had any connection to each other. What we actually have there is a big party, a popular young woman dancing with all the hottest young men, and a shy kid sitting on the sidelines missing out. Then one of the popular young men, generally described, as wild, fun and enormously eligible asked the popular girl to dance with the stuck-on-his-bench little brother. Which she did.

It was (by me as well) widely read as implying Ned liked Ashara because it is preceded by multiple rumours of a Ned + Ashara affair. But information from ADwD puts new light on the people inlvolved there and re-examining shows that all of the prior rumours come from sources that weren't around at the time in question, didn't know the subjects of the rumours and post-date the gossiply suspicious appearance of Ned taking away his bastard Jon at Starfall at the same time that disgraced girl Ashara of Starfall commits suicide.

The actual KotLT story on its own has no suggestion at all of anything more than a dance between Ned and Ashara. Brandon has more direct and more initimate connection with her in that story - she actually does something he asked her to do. He also fits much better with the crowd she is dancing with.

Barristan's quote suggests that Ashara hadn't lost her child that long ago.

Barristan's quote is extremely vague and concerns events that he wasn't present for nearly 20 years ago.

It could easily cover a year.

Although Wylla/a wet nurse could have been picked up later. Wet nurses usually aren't present at the birth.

Not at the physical birth, but they are usually immediately available for nursing (ie generally present, if not in the actual birthing room).

A wet nurse implies that she has also recently given birth.

No, it does not (though its possible she may have). Wetnurses can nurse for years, moving from baby to baby, and even self-milking between babies to keep the milk flowing. Its almost certain she had a baby once at least, though even then not strictly necessarily, biologically speaking. But the very fact she's chosen as a wetnurse makes it also very likely that her own child was already old enough to stop nursing or more likely had already died.

Where is Wylla's child?

There is no necessity for there to be a child of hers sufficiently involved to be mentioned. Most likely hers is dead, or possibly a bit older, old enough to have finished nursing and even be brought up by others while his mother makes a good career.

Did she give birth at the ToJ as well?

Or was her milk from an earlier pregnancy, do we presume?

There's no evidence or even suggestion she might give birth at ToJ. Nor is it very likely. You don't pick a pregnant woman as your wetnurse, because you can't tell if she'll have enough milk for multiple babies. You pick a proven milk producer who has no current nursing child of her own but is still lactating for one reason or other.

Wylla is a Starfall servant. I'm presuming she was around for Ashara's pregnancy, ready to nurse the daughter who was eventually stillborn.

Thats a reasonable possibility, but not necessary something that should be assumed.

Would it be safe to say that when Lyanna became pregnant, or sometime close to giving birth Ser Arthur Dayne had her brought to the ToJ along with a midwife in anticipation of Lyanna giving birth?

Again, that seems likely, very likely even, even in conjunction with the previous question. But not entirely safe to assume it as a given.

I would say that most likely some time in the final trimester Arthur had Wylla brought to ToJ ready to be wetnurse for Lyanna's baby.

But this must mean either that Wylla was also pregnant at this time for people at Starfall to believe that Jon was indeed her child or she was absent from Starfall for a long enough period that people wouldn't know either way.

Is this even making sense? But its something that's been bugging me for some time even though it might not be relevant in the big picture.

Its reasonable she was away from Starfall for up to 3 months, which could then be an unplanned and un-noticed pregnancy - they do happen even if uncommon.

More likely, she was from around Starfall somewhere but not actually a direct part of the household, so when she visits Starfall in the ToJ aftermath, and even more so when she returns there a year or more later after Jon is weaned, no one actually knows her old movements and physical condition from ' the right time back then' to dispute Jon being her child.

In other words, there can easily be no noticable discrepancy in her story that Jon is her son for the lower members of the Dayne Household to be aware of.

Brandon Stark was traveling back from Winterfell, accompanied by his father, Rickard, and 200 of Rickards men. They were headed to Riverrun, for Brandon's wedding.

Are you sure?

My understanding was that Rickard was at Winterfall and Brandon was at Riverrun. Brandon left on a short errand and got the 'abduction' news somehow while he was away, but not that far from, Riverrun.

Rickard and the 200 are only involved after Aerys sends for Rickard to answer to Brandon's crime.

No?

Why would she kill herself 1 year after losing the child at the same time Eddard meets her to tell her her brother is dead and also mysteriously returns to Winterfell with a child/apparently has a bastard child at this time.

Note that Barristan doesn't know squat here. He wasn't around for any of it, since Harrenhal, and he is musing to himself, making guesses as to why she might have committed suicide (as reported to him, not as he knows of his own knowledge). His guesses are not based in facts, just him trying to figure out possibilities.

We don't know that she even lost the child, though we have no reason to truly doubt it so I don't actively doubt it at this stage. If she did, the best data we have places the child's loss around a year or a bit more before her suicide, agreed. But Barristan is a bit hazy on the details here - its 20 years ago nearly and he wasn't directly involved, just has what he has been told by others. Even his mental language is vague here. It seems likely that his musing on losing the babe being a reason is wrong. Probably even losing a lover is wrong too, since that would likely have been the best part of a year before anyway (whether the likely candidate be Ned or Brandon). Losing a brother would have been sharp and immediate though, and maybe the combination of any or all of those things did the damage with brother-loss as the final trigger.

Personally I don't think she actually commited suicide at all, anyway, which makes Barristan's musings here as to why she did somewhat... extraneous... to us.

I think she probably faked the suicide in order to join fAegon (real or fake, but she believes real) on the way to Essos. I'm not committed to that by any stretch but its definitely where the evidence leads me at this point.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

And when would Cat see him? Perhaps Ned had Jon prior to the rebellion/ at the start idk.

But that's the point, that Jon is younger than Robb, and thus conceived after Robb, when Ned and Cat were already married. Otherwise, Ned would not be saying "I dishonored Catelyn in the sights of gods and men", nor would Jon be an issue to Catelyn, since he would be from before the marriage, meaning that Ned did not cheat.

Ned tells everyone that Jon is younger than Robb. So no, Ned did not have him prior to the Rebellion

[IceFire125]

Jon and the promise(s) that follows him from birth...

"He was chosen for that duty because the Lord Commander saw much promise in him. As do I (Aemon)." - ASOS Jon IX

Ned Stark kept his vows. He thought of the promises he’d made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he’d paid to keep them. - AGOT Eddard IX

And what are the other promises that Ned made to Lyanna?

1. Jon, please keep him safe, let him live - fulfilled

2. take me back to Winterfell, to the crypts - fulfilled

The thought of Jon filled Ned with a sense of shame, and a sorrow too deep for words. If only he could see the boy again, sit and talk with him... - AGOT Eddard XV

3. and when he's ready, please tell him of about his father, my husband (handing Ned a witness document? Rhaegar's harp? with proof of a Targaryen marriage cloak hanging next to the bed) - not fulfilled

Again, I might be out there and this might not mean anything much, but I like it! :)