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The horned/Cheshire moon and questions relating


Waters Gate

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I got some questions regarding a detail i observed in the books. In the books there are mention of a "horned moon". Basicly this is actually a crescent moon but one who appears lying on it's back. Wikipedia has some information regarding horned moons, or also known as a wet moon or a Cheshire moon.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wet_moon



Below are listed 4 refferals in the book i could find on a horned moon being observed.



AGOT



Location: near the Eyrie



Even so, it was full dark before they reached the stout castle that stood at the foot of the Giant’s Lance. Torches flickered atop its ramparts, and the horned moon danced upon the dark waters of its moat.



Location: the twins



They crossed at evenfall as a horned moon floated upon the river. The double column wound its way through the gate of the eastern twin like a great steel snake, slithering across the courtyard, into the keep and over the bridge, to issue forth once more from the second castle on the west bank.

Catelyn rode at the head of the serpent, with her son and her uncle Ser Brynden and Ser Stevron Frey.


AFFC


Location: kings landing



He opened the shutters. The night was growing cold, and a horned moon rode the sky. His hand shone dully in its light. No good for throttling eunuchs, but heavy enough to smash that slimy smile into a fine red ruin. He wanted to hit someone.

Jaime found Ser Ilyn honing his greatsword. “It’s time,” he told the man. The headsman rose and followed, his cracked leather boots scraping against the steep stone steps as they went down the stair. A small courtyard opened off the armory. Jaime found two shields there, two halfhelms, and a pair of blunted tourney swords. He offered one to Payne and took the other in his left hand as he slid his right through the loops of the shield. His golden fingers were curved enough to hook, but could not grasp, so his hold upon the shield was loose. “You were a knight once, ser,” Jaime said. “So was I. Let us see what we are now.”

Ser Ilyn raised his blade in reply, and Jaime moved at once


ADWD


Location: Up north around the wall



The direwolf’s pale yellow eyes drank in the sights around them. A nest of entrails coiled

through a bush, entangled with the branches. Steam rising from an open belly, rich with the smells of

blood and meat. A head staring sightlessly up at a horned moon, cheeks ripped and torn down to bloody

bone, pits for eyes, neck ending in a ragged stump. A pool of frozen blood, glistening red and black.

Men. The stink of them filled the world. Alive, they had been as many as the fingers on a man’s

paw, but now they were none. Dead. Done. Meat. Cloaked and hooded, once, but the wolves had torn

their clothing into pieces in their frenzy to get at the flesh. Those who still had faces wore thick beards

crusted with ice and frozen snot. The falling snow had begun to bury what remained of them, so pale

against the black of ragged cloaks and breeches. Black.

Long leagues away, the boy stirred uneasily.

Black. Night’s Watch. They were Night’s Watch.



It's interresting for GRRM, who puts some detail in the depiction of the moon in his books and has some religious stuff going aroudn that, that asside from all the observations he makes people make in his books of moons in different phases, that there are also observations made of what is on eath also known as a wet moon, for it is something observed on earth as well.


That said, i only know so much about physics and astronomy, so bear with me if it takes some effort of me to understand the dynamics behidn this wet moon. if one thing appeared of from the description in Wikipedia, then it was that wet moons were stypicly observed frequently over the tropics and seldomly near the pole regions. A number of dynamics come into play, the viewpoint a person is in, the earths rotational axis and the seaons it is in, etc. ANYONE having really well educated knwoledge on these subjects would be highly welcome here, its a rather complicated matter.


But in the first instance, am i right to think that these observations of a horned moon look "off", in the sense that they should not be seen so much up north but rather at the equator?


from wikipedia:



Wet moons occur routinely in the tropics (where the sun and moon rise and set nearly vertically), and rarely in polar regions (where the sun and moon rise and set at a glancing angle or not at all).










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Because this topic might be not so easy to understand for everyone, i drew some picture's to explain the dynamics behind a horned/cheshire moon, and why the observation of that horned moon seems a bit puzzling to me.



https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/97664399/Cheshiremoon.png



As it might be more clear from the picture i drew here, you are far more likely to observe that horned moon from near the equator, and far more unlikely to view it from near the pole area's. What we might assume iis that if the same moon appears to be horned over 2 different lattitude's (kings landing VS beyond the wall) that indeed there must be a axis upon which the planet rotate's. We do not get to know of area's that are 6 months dark and 6 monts light trough the year though.


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Thank you for the recognition.



Continuing the research. I must mention something which due to my lack of astrophysical pedigree i havn't yet conisdered.



The moon apparently doesn't always stay on the same plane with the sun. Rather, it sits on the same plane as that of the earths axis:



http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/files/2010/10/moon.orbit_.jpeg



I guess what this different plane relative to the sun does for the light on the moon in respect to a specific viewpoint on earth is to somewhat turn the crescent moon, from one side to another, more right or left, depending on the seaon.


its a bit confusing to work out how it wil lbe changed and under what circumstances, and how much of an effect it even has.


Otoh, it seems to me then that with some astrological observations a cheshire moon might help one determine what season he is in.

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'"Horned moon" was just a description of one of the phases of the moon - new, horned, half, gibbous, full.'

I'm adding this bit to my post because I started to wonder if horned moon always (in history) meant a crescent moon that looked horizontal - like horns pointing up - or if it simply meant crescent moon, which is what I first assumed when I read the text. I found the above quote in a discussion of the horned moon in A Midsummers Night Dream. So it could be GRRM is just choosing to use a poetic old fashioned term for one of the crescent like phases of the moon - I guess a new moon looks more like a sliver, then the moon looks like horns, then like half under this system.



I noticed the horned moon in the Jaime chapter you quote, and thought it might be a reference to having horns - being a cuckold, since Cersei's betrayal is what he is thinking about during the time he fights Ilyn. But if its in those other places too that doesn't seem to fit.



I also wondered if it might be a bad omen. Ser Ilyn basically represents death and Jaime spends the chapter 'dancing' with death. Maybe GRRM just likes the expression. 'Dancing beneath the horned moon' has a certain ring to it.



I also did some google/wikipedia searches and did find something about a type of moon seen in the Ancient Mariner, where it is a harbinger of a terrible storm and disaster at sea.



I can't help you with your speculations - you do need someone with a scientific background, not me...


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  • 1 year later...

For the record, I think you missed one...

Above Snow, the wind was a living thing, howling around them like a wolf in the waste, then falling off to nothing as if to lure them into complacency. The stars seemed brighter up here, so close that she could almost touch them, and the horned moon was huge in the clear black sky. As they climbed, Catelyn found it was better to look up than down. The steps were cracked and broken from centuries of freeze and thaw and the tread of countless mules, and even in the dark the heights put her heart in her throat. When they came to a high saddle between two spires of rock, Mya dismounted. "It's best to lead the mules over," she said. "The wind can be a little scary here, my lady."

Catelyn VI, Game 34

It's further on in the first chapter you cited.

Alsi noted that Brynden Tully notes that ascending to the Eyrie at night without a full moon was madness. So that might have been the reason for it here.

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Also note that the moon was half full when Tyrion and Bronn were sent out of the Bloody Gate, so the George was very likely using it to mark time. If so, either 3-4 days, or 18-19 days, or 25-26 days passed between Game 34 and Game 42. Given Tyrion's reference to days spent in the Sky Cells, it was not 3-4 days.

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