[Book Spoilers] EP405 Discussion

[Jameson Snow]

This whole "unsullied" thing is kinda lame IMO. The overall connotation feels pretty condescending and it's rather unfair to categorize the entirety of all non book readers that way. I know some people who only watch the show and keep up with it better than people who have read the books. It all depends on the person and how invested in this story they choose to be.

Also, I'm in the camp of Cersei totally faking her way through that convo with Margaery. Pretty surprised so many "sullied" think otherwise.,

[Frances Bean Corbray]

Oh and I know a lot of stuff gets lost in the shuffle because this thread flies by a mile a minute on episode night, but:

But hey… join us next week when we get to watch Stannis Baratheon fill out a loan application. Remember when he stormed a beach? Now watch him storm complex interest.

This really was a tremendous line. I salute this. :cheers:

[Fat Trell]

I think television audiences are incredibly underrated here. You can have long-running shows with complex histories and plots without telegraphing every detail. HBO has had a handful in the past five years alone.

The lack of subtlety is not a reality of television, its a mark against the show-runners.

[JesterX]

What does that have to do with anything?

Each character's story has to have a seasonal arc, and they have to try and keep all the characters roughly in sync. Some characters went through most of their book 3 material last season, but still have good stopping points at the end of that book, so they have to have their remaining material spread out. Others are into the later books, or have so little material that stuff has to be invented to keep the stories loosely in sync.

Again, you're essentially making the same point. When you say "keep all the characters roughly in sync", in sync wiith what? The books, correct? So that would mean they're trying to stay behind the books.

[juanml82]

Total character deviation for Cersei. NO WAY would she ever confess her displeasure with Joffrey to anyone outside of the family.

she did, to Sansa, in both books and show. She had no reason to see Sansa as a rival, though

[Darth Pipes]

Gonna miss Burn Gorman. Such a tremendous performance tucked into even an ultimately minor role.

Still, he's cleared away at just the right time: Iwan Rheon is back in action as Ramsay next week to keep the villain flag flying strong and [*sigh* one last time] THE FOOKING LEGEND OF GIN ALLEY was a more than suitable filler of the gap.

Gorman is currently on Turn, where he plays a very entertaining villain. I guess he's still around on the show.

[Bran's Legs]

I gotta say I feel bad for Hodor. I wish they could have escaped without Bran warging Hodor. Hodor with Locke's blood on his hand made me very sad for Hodor. That really was a violation of Hodor as a person, and it was so different from Bran accidentally warging him to calm him down at Queenscrown. :(

Seemed like the only option, and you knew that it would happen at some point.

[Lord Godric]

I know the Bran stuff was all a deviation from the book, but I love the way Jojen is being played and what was shown tonight. It all seems to be spoilery regarding Bran's final fate and Jojen's as well. Jojen was obviously "burning" so I imagine there will be a confrontation with Melisandre eventually..

Oh, but I really just wanted him to say 'this is not the day i die'

Edited May 5, 2014 by Lord Godric

[Colonel Green]

When you say "keep all the characters roughly in sync", in sync wiith what? The books, correct?

No, in sync with each other. You can't have Arya spending the entire season going through her Braavos material when everybody else is still back in ASOS.

[Ginevra]

Or a cousin. Nieces and nephews can also be the children of cousins.

First cousins once removed would be the relationship with children of cousins.

[Zman1863]

This whole "unsullied" thing is kinda lame IMO. The overall connotation feels pretty condescending and it's rather unfair to categorize the entirety of all non book readers that way. I know some people who only watch the show and keep up with it better than people who have read the books. It all depends on the person and how invested in this story they choose to be.

Also, I'm in the camp of Cersei totally faking her way through that convo with Margaery. Pretty surprised so many "sullied" think otherwise.,

Yeah its kind of the same as the first season when she tells Catelyn about her first son with Robert and praying for Bran to wake up. It's obviously an act.

[Florina Laufeyson]

Gonna miss Burn Gorman. Such a tremendous performance tucked into even an ultimately minor role.

Still, he's cleared away at just the right time: Iwan Rheon is back in action as Ramsay next week to keep the villain flag flying strong and [*sigh* one last time] THE FOOKING LEGEND OF GIN ALLEY was a more than suitable filler of the gap.

Dude, the preview for next week has Ramsay all shirtless. :devil: HBO, that shit aint cool. How dare you make the worst guy in the series, actually pretty cut. Ugh.... I liked Karl's stint of horrible villainy. Gave a reason for guys in the Watch to find Jon awesome.

I think the primary reason for them having the Lannister mines run dry is to once again make the Iron Bank of Braavos prominent. But I can't tell what they're trying to set up with this. There have been so many mentions of the bank so far this season. I mean what are they planning to do, make the faceless men agents of the Bank or something?

The Iron Bank mentions seem so heavyhanded that i have to assume theres a Faceless Man connection. Even my parents are noticing a possible connection. So maybe Jaqen, at very least, was sent by the Iron Bank to collect from the crown. And wound up in the Black Cells for his troubles. I dunno.

I assume that Jojen's burning hand had absolutely nothing to do with R'hllor, but a vision only he saw, of the way he was going to die.

I thought it had to do with him dying out there beyond the Wall and them burning him to keep him from being wighted. All i know is that JOJENPASTE IS FUCKING DEAD. :devil:

, but I love the way Jojen is being played and what was shown tonight.

Me too. Im not sure i buy him getting torched by Mel. But its possible. I tend to subscribe to the idea he dies of illness and the CotF burn him.

[iknownothingjonsnow]

Can someone possibly explain Bran's actions? We're captured - good. Hodor is being tortured - good. Women all around us are being raped and abused - good. Maera is about to be raped - good.

Locke shows up - ok, this has gone on JUST long enough, and NOW it's time to warg into Hodor (nevermind the fact that he recently had a spear put through his leg) and get us out of here.

WTF???

[Jameson Snow]

No, in sync with each other. You can't have Arya spending the entire season going through her Braavos material when everybody else is still back in ASOS.

Wait... so in sync with each other... according to the books? That's still the books, haha.

[Doloorous Edd cracks me up]

Does Jogen's flaming hand vision do away with the Jogen paste theory.

[nara]

Can someone possibly explain Bran's actions? We're captured - good. Hodor is being tortured - good. Women all around us are being raped and abused - good. Maera is about to be raped - good.

Locke shows up - ok, this has gone on JUST long enough, and NOW it's time to warg into Hodor (nevermind the fact that he recently had a spear put through his leg) and get us out of here.

WTF???

It's strange, but here's what I choose to believe. Hodor could not have fought off all the men, so warging into him earlier would have unnecessarily sacrificed Hodor's life. If the rape of Meera had continued and the men hadn't been distracted by Jon & co, Bran would have warged Hodor to save her (there were only 3 of the bad guys there I think, so the odds were more reasonable).

[raj34]

The Iron Bank mentions seem so heavyhanded that i have to assume theres a Faceless Man connection. Even my parents are noticing a possible connection. So maybe Jaqen, at very least, was sent by the Iron Bank to collect from the crown. And wound up in the Black Cells for his troubles. I dunno.

Yeah, the Iron Bank, at least in the show, is Too Big To Fail. A faceless man tie in definitely makes sense here.

[Lord Godric]

Can someone possibly explain Bran's actions? We're captured - good. Hodor is being tortured - good. Women all around us are being raped and abused - good. Maera is about to be raped - good.

Locke shows up - ok, this has gone on JUST long enough, and NOW it's time to warg into Hodor (nevermind the fact that he recently had a spear put through his leg) and get us out of here.

WTF???

i don't know if Bran can always warg into Hodor. We know from the books that he only did it once (at this point) and it was in absolute desperation to get Hodor to stop screaming, I don't think it's something that comes to Bran's mind as one of his abilities.

[Lord Godric]

Yeah, the Iron Bank, at least in the show, is Too Big To Fail. A faceless man tie in definitely makes sense here.

It certainly would be easier for the show to explain that the Iron Bank needs a "security" force like the Faceless Men than to delve into another new religious aspect. So, the more I think about it the more I see that happening as well.

[Jasta11]

It's funny to see people blast the show for its lack of subtlety, then have it whoosh past their head when the writers do display it. Cercei is obviously buttering up the judges for her trial. Using the ''family legacy'' angle on Tywin, the ''avenging our loved ones'' on Oberyn, and making false ammends towards Marge who is the brains behind her oaf of a father. Just look at her face when Marge calls her ''mother''. She's obviously holding back the screams.

For the people who say that this differs from Book!Cercei, I say: good. Book Cercei is a one-note, bitchy dumbass. She's entertaining to read about in a ''oh my god how stupid can she get?'' way, but she's not a multi-layered, grey character, especially from book 4 onwards. If the show decides to inject some cunning and/or sympathy in her, all the better. She's already far more interesting than her book counterpart.

Not a fan of the Lannisters no longer having any gold, however. Not sure what it brings to the story. And like some have said, it makes Tyrion's eventual quest for Casterly Rock seem pretty pointless. We'll see how it plays out. Other thoughts:

- Loved Arya and the Hound. About time someone gave the she-wolf a reality check on how useful her dingy little blade actually is against anyone that's not already at her mercy. And she still wants the Hound dead.

- Dorky Pod could get old, but at least they got some development into him.

- Crazy Lysa was great. Loved LF's ''Do not want'' looks as she kissed him. And the screams they kept from the book, too. Poor Sansa.

- And let the Dany sitting around doing fuck-all phase commence. I really hope they at least try to spice it up so that it's not as boring as in the books. At least the illusion of perfect little Khalessi effortlessly freeing everyone and crapping rainbows is finally shattered.

- I'm really sad to see Locke go. He was one of the better show additions, certainly miles beyond Vargo Hoat and his gang of clowns. On the other hand I liked the scene, including Hodor looking in horror at his blood-soaked hands. I'm glad they highlighted the fallout of Bran possessing a simple man. Also liked the foreshadowing by Jojen.

- Attack on Craster's was nice, but the general fight was off. The show has just said that there were 11 men at the Keep, with no sentries, and Jon had, what, 6 guys total on his ranging including himself? Then his group charges into battle screaming like maniacs and start cutting down what seems like 20 or 30 guys, while losing 5 people which doesn't fit with his numbers. Liked the fight with Carl fucking Tanner, and to me it makes sense a fresh guy with daggers who was the best assassin in King's Landing would beat Jon, who's much less experienced, tired, using a sword in close quarters and learned to fight against armored/honorable opponents.

Good episode overall, but one of the season's weakest (which says a lot about the season's quality more than anything else IMO). But next week looks great.