[Book Spoilers] EP405 Discussion

[oierem]

It's not the most important thing in the episode, but why the heck haven't they changed the credits sequence yet? I understand they can't change it every week, but this was annoying: five episodes and still the same title sequence, no Eyrie (and yet neither Dragonstone nor the Dreadfort appeared), Connleth Hill not credited (but appeared) while Jerome Flynn credited (but without appearing). Who's in charge of that?

[BrienneofQarth]

Honestly? This was without doubt my least favourite episode of the show so far out of any season. It completely lacked pace or tension. And my main problem was that it just didn't justify some of the book/show deviations-

a) All of the Craster's captives stuff, I was sitting there justifying the changes by thinking - "this is going to be a really super-amazing way to introduce Coldhands. Coldhands he will save them yes!" Right down to that bit at the end with the threat of the randomly-night-watchy- Vargo Hoat I was like, "Coldhands!" - but NO. This leads me to doubt whether they will introduce him....in the same way I am beginning to doubt Stoneheart is coming. For me, these two characters are the best thing about the post Red Wedding books, and the distinct lack of even a foreshadowing of either so far this Season makes me kinda bored. Also, Jojen's part in Craster's, especially Jojen's burny hand - I found this a little stupid - my main problem (and this might be a bit daft), is if he really could produce fire from his fingers and this wasn't a trick, then why didn't he burn through some ropes? I also thought Jojen's whole 'don't talk to Jon, Bran' stuff was a bit of very clumsy exposition.

b) speaking of very clumsy exposition - Dany's scene - we got no visuals at all of the troubles in Yunkai or Astapor, Just some rather clumsy dialogue that was basically like "so this is why she isn't going to invade Westeros for the next 20 hours minimum of footage"

c) The Hound still being on Arya's kill list - Who knows, maybe they will show her taking him out of it next episode, but I feel like his still being on the kill list at this late stage in their relationship sort of undermines how close they have become. I think the lack of the Mountain in the last few seasons of the show also makes his presence on Arya's kill list a bit less justifiable than it plainly is in the books. I am really getting hacked off at how little the Mountain has been portrayed - if the Viper vs the Mountain is the crucial 9th episode, I really think he should have been a bit more present throughout to make the dramatic effect this episode strong.

The silver lining:

I did, however, like the bits of possible book foreshadowing - Arya's expanded kill list including both Red Priests, Thoros and Melisandre suggests to me, maybe that the followers of the faith of Rh'llor may yet be defeated, for better or for worse.

[trgryn-strk-lnstr-mrtell]

thanks for replies!

[Lord of Winterhell]

It would be pretty hilarious if Victarion and that entire plotline were entirely eliminated with a throwaway line from Daario about getting 93 ships for Dany. Ditto if Quentyn's storyline was reduced to the single line "Some random asshole accidentally freed the dragons."

Well that's exactly what happened in the books imo :cool4:

[Lord of Winterhell]

Either Bran and Jojen are dicks, or D&D are shitty writers.

Or maybe just show characters make sometimes wrong or illogical decisions, as do their book counterparts, and as we all do in real life.

[cip]

It's not the most important thing in the episode, but why the heck haven't they changed the credits sequence yet? I understand they can't change it every week, but this was annoying: five episodes and still the same title sequence, no Eyrie (and yet neither Dragonstone nor the Dreadfort appeared), Connleth Hill not credited (but appeared) while Jerome Flynn credited (but without appearing). Who's in charge of that?

Yeah, this really bothered me as well. They already have the model for the Eyrie, they "only" need to change the flight path. I don't know if this was done for budget reasons or if it was an oversight. I really think they should make a bit more use of the title sequence, as it helps people to know where things are and also acts like a little teaser to get hyped when you learn where this episode takes you.

They also credtied Coster-Waldau (first credit), when he only appeared for the three seconds total, standing guard with no dialogue..

[SJB]

Honestly? This was without doubt my least favourite episode of the show so far out of any season. It completely lacked pace or tension. And my main problem was that it just didn't justify some of the book/show deviations-

a) All of the Craster's captives stuff, I was sitting there justifying the changes by thinking - "this is going to be a really super-amazing way to introduce Coldhands. Coldhands he will save them yes!" Right down to that bit at the end with the threat of the randomly-night-watchy- Vargo Hoat I was like, "Coldhands!" - but NO. This leads me to doubt whether they will introduce him....in the same way I am beginning to doubt Stoneheart is coming. For me, these two characters are the best thing about the post Red Wedding books, and the distinct lack of even a foreshadowing of either so far this Season makes me kinda bored. Also, Jojen's part in Craster's, especially Jojen's burny hand - I found this a little stupid - my main problem (and this might be a bit daft), is if he really could produce fire from his fingers and this wasn't a trick, then why didn't he burn through some ropes? I also thought Jojen's whole 'don't talk to Jon, Bran' stuff was a bit of very clumsy exposition.

B) speaking of very clumsy exposition - Dany's scene - we got no visuals at all of the troubles in Yunkai or Astapor, Just some rather clumsy dialogue that was basically like "so this is why she isn't going to invade Westeros for the next 20 hours minimum of footage"

c) The Hound still being on Arya's kill list - Who knows, maybe they will show her taking him out of it next episode, but I feel like his still being on the kill list at this late stage in their relationship sort of undermines how close they have become. I think the lack of the Mountain in the last few seasons of the show also makes his presence on Arya's kill list a bit less justifiable than it plainly is in the books. I am really getting hacked off at how little the Mountain has been portrayed - if the Viper vs the Mountain is the crucial 9th episode, I really think he should have been a bit more present throughout to make the dramatic effect this episode strong.

The silver lining:

I did, however, like the bits of possible book foreshadowing - Arya's expanded kill list including both Red Priests, Thoros and Melisandre suggests to me, maybe that the followers of the faith of Rh'llor may yet be defeated, for better or for worse.

Jojen's burning hand was a vision, not reality. Same goes for the big weirwood tree.

[SerArthurHeath]

And the don't tell Jon stuff makes just as much sense as it did in the books. Which, IMO, is a lot

[Darryk]

"I saw you die tonight, I saw you burn. I saw the snow fall down and bury your bones"

Epic line.

[Janicia]

I miss Varys. The show has had so much fun with him sparring against Littlefinger so it feels weird to see Littlefinger ascendant while Varys' only move lately has been to try to get Shae out of Kings Landing. I know Varys has some moves up his sleeve for this season and the next one and I know it makes perfect sense for him to lie low while Tywin is in Kings Landing, but I miss him!

[RumHam]

I miss Varys. The show has had so much fun with him sparring against Littlefinger so it feels weird to see Littlefinger ascendant while Varys' only move lately has been to try to get Shae out of Kings Landing. I know Varys has some moves up his sleeve for this season and the next one and I know it makes perfect sense for him to lie low while Tywin is in Kings Landing, but I miss him!

I think I saw another "Varys talks to someone in front of the throne" scene in the previews for next week. I miss him too.

[Waxfoot]

I don't get the obsession with wanting Coldhands to be introduced on the show right now.

If anything, him not being introduced yet just means that he might be saved until they really need his character involved, when his introduction will have a bigger impact perhaps.

Plus, it's possible that D+D know that introducing CH now could very well reveal a book spoiler regarding his identity.

[sj4iy]

Honestly? This was without doubt my least favourite episode of the show so far out of any season. It completely lacked pace or tension. And my main problem was that it just didn't justify some of the book/show deviations-

a) All of the Craster's captives stuff, I was sitting there justifying the changes by thinking - "this is going to be a really super-amazing way to introduce Coldhands. Coldhands he will save them yes!" Right down to that bit at the end with the threat of the randomly-night-watchy- Vargo Hoat I was like, "Coldhands!" - but NO. This leads me to doubt whether they will introduce him....in the same way I am beginning to doubt Stoneheart is coming.

It was pretty obvious that Coldhands was never going to appear since they replaced everything that Coldhands did by other means (Sam knew how to go under the Wall from a book, and Jon went after the mutineers). Stoneheart is completely different as she is important in the future story...Coldhands apparently is not.

For me, these two characters are the best thing about the post Red Wedding books, and the distinct lack of even a foreshadowing of either so far this Season makes me kinda bored. Also, Jojen's part in Craster's, especially Jojen's burny hand - I found this a little stupid - my main problem (and this might be a bit daft), is if he really could produce fire from his fingers and this wasn't a trick, then why didn't he burn through some ropes? I also thought Jojen's whole 'don't talk to Jon, Bran' stuff was a bit of very clumsy exposition.

Jojen had a vision about how he will 'end (i.e. he will burn)- you didn't actually think that was a real flame, did you?

B) speaking of very clumsy exposition - Dany's scene - we got no visuals at all of the troubles in Yunkai or Astapor, Just some rather clumsy dialogue that was basically like "so this is why she isn't going to invade Westeros for the next 20 hours minimum of footage"

The exposition wasn't clumsy, the acting was bad. And we don't need 'visuals' to understand what they mean by 'Every place you liberated is going to hell'. It makes sense without seeing it.

c) The Hound still being on Arya's kill list - Who knows, maybe they will show her taking him out of it next episode, but I feel like his still being on the kill list at this late stage in their relationship sort of undermines how close they have become. I think the lack of the Mountain in the last few seasons of the show also makes his presence on Arya's kill list a bit less justifiable than it plainly is in the books. I am really getting hacked off at how little the Mountain has been portrayed - if the Viper vs the Mountain is the crucial 9th episode, I really think he should have been a bit more present throughout to make the dramatic effect this episode strong.

She's his captive, but is in the position of needing his help to survive- it's not a buddy-buddy relationship.

The silver lining:

I did, however, like the bits of possible book foreshadowing - Arya's expanded kill list including both Red Priests, Thoros and Melisandre suggests to me, maybe that the followers of the faith of Rh'llor may yet be defeated, for better or for worse.

We shall see.

Edited May 6, 2014 by sj4iy

[trgryn-strk-lnstr-mrtell]

I don't get the obsession with wanting Coldhands to be introduced on the show right now.

If anything, him not being introduced yet just means that he might be saved until they really need his character involved, when his introduction will have a bigger impact perhaps.

Plus, it's possible that D+D know that introducing CH now could very well reveal a book spoiler regarding his identity.

Excellent point!! while i was bummed about no CH last season, i didnt even think about it...IMO im just 100% sure than CH=benjen Stark, im sure alot of other people think along these lines with varying levels of certainty...

if they introduced in the show one of 2 things happen -

1) they get the same actor who played Benjen and then eveeeeeeeeeryone KNOWS thats him because of casting

2) they get new actor and then all us (sullied) will be super confused

either way, big spoiler for us...think of Artsan/Whitebeard...main reason to skip that whole thing was because there are some tricks that authors can use in books but that just aren't possible when people can actually SEE the characters

[Tyrion Hand of the King]

I think he was pointing out, though not intentionally, that a) he didn't know squat about fighting without armor or water dancing and B) even if water dancing could beat armor, Arya was just a beginner. Yeah of course Syrio couldn't beat the hound any more than a guy with no armor and only a spear could beat a big guy in heavy plate ;/

I wouldn't say that Oberyn COULDN'T beat Gregor. If he wasn't so concerned with getting a confession he could've finished him when he got him on the ground. I understand your point though.

[trgryn-strk-lnstr-mrtell]

I wouldn't say that Oberyn COULDN'T beat Gregor. If he wasn't so concerned with getting a confession he could've finished him when he got him on the ground. I understand your point though.

im going to have to re-read the fight (after ep 8 airs) to confirm, but I remember getting the feeling that Oberyn was just toying around with Gregor...i have this image in my mind that Oberyn was pretty much walking circles around Gregor, cool as a cucumber and Gregor was huffing and puffing and sweating and struggling to keep up and get a shot in

cant wait to see how it is depicted in the show! :drool:

[Tyrion Hand of the King]

"I saw you die tonight, I saw you burn. I saw the snow fall down and bury your bones"

Epic line.

:commie: Jojen is a BAMF. I'm loving the actor who portrays him.

[Tyrion Hand of the King]

im going to have to re-read the fight (after ep 8 airs) to confirm, but I remember getting the feeling that Oberyn was just toying around with Gregor...i have this image in my mind that Oberyn was pretty much walking circles around Gregor, cool as a cucumber and Gregor was huffing and puffing and sweating and struggling to keep up and get a shot in

cant wait to see how it is depicted in the show! :drool:

Yea I agree with you. My impression was that he outfought Gregor and could have finished him off if it wasn't for his desire to draw a confession out of him. I believe GRRM wanted everyone to be thinking holy crap Oberyn is really kicking Gregor's ass, he's going to beat him and Tyrion is going to get off, then bam everything goes to shit. He had the perfect strategy to take down a huge guy in heavy plate. He even had him pinned on the ground, but he needed that confession so bad that it ended up backfiring on him. The other thing is he knew Gregor was dead regardless, considering he poisoned the spear. So at that point all he cared about was a confession. It's really too bad, but arguably the most epic scene in the series IMO.

Edit: On a side note is it wrong that I'm really interested to see Gregor crush Oberyn's head? Don't get me wrong I hate Gregor and love Oberyn, but it's just such a brutal moment that I'm very interested to see how it will turn out on screen. Should be graphic enough to make Tyrion puke.

Edited May 6, 2014 by Tyrion Hand of the King

[HexMachina]

:commie: Jojen is a BAMF. I'm loving the actor who portrays him.

I think most of the acting in this episode was strong actually. The only two I wasnt that impressed with are LF and Dany/Emilia. They seemed much weaker than the others this episode. (I'm not a big fan of LF's actor at all this season actually)

[trgryn-strk-lnstr-mrtell]

Yea I agree with you. My impression was that he outfought Gregor and could have finished him off if it wasn't for his desire to draw a confession out of him. I believe GRRM wanted everyone to be thinking holy crap Oberyn is really kicking Gregor's ass, he's going to beat him and Tyrion is going to get off, then bam everything goes to shit. He had the perfect strategy to take down a huge guy in heavy plate. He even had him pinned on the ground, but he needed that confession so bad that it ended up backfiring on him. The other thing is he knew Gregor was dead regardless, considering he poisoned the spear. So at that point all he cared about was a confession. It's really too bad, but arguably the most epic scene in the series IMO.

agreed with all of it!