[Book Spoilers] EP405 Discussion

[Queen Ayras Lord Commander]

But at least those wigs on Jamie and Tyrion were, you know, BLONDE.

Yeah, what's up with that?

[Queen Ayras Lord Commander]

Honestly? This was without doubt my least favourite episode of the show so far out of any season. It completely lacked pace or tension. And my main problem was that it just didn't justify some of the book/show deviations-

a) All of the Craster's captives stuff, I was sitting there justifying the changes by thinking - "this is going to be a really super-amazing way to introduce Coldhands. Coldhands he will save them yes!" Right down to that bit at the end with the threat of the randomly-night-watchy- Vargo Hoat I was like, "Coldhands!" - but NO. This leads me to doubt whether they will introduce him....in the same way I am beginning to doubt Stoneheart is coming. For me, these two characters are the best thing about the post Red Wedding books, and the distinct lack of even a foreshadowing of either so far this Season makes me kinda bored. Also, Jojen's part in Craster's, especially Jojen's burny hand - I found this a little stupid - my main problem (and this might be a bit daft), is if he really could produce fire from his fingers and this wasn't a trick, then why didn't he burn through some ropes? I also thought Jojen's whole 'don't talk to Jon, Bran' stuff was a bit of very clumsy exposition.

B) speaking of very clumsy exposition - Dany's scene - we got no visuals at all of the troubles in Yunkai or Astapor, Just some rather clumsy dialogue that was basically like "so this is why she isn't going to invade Westeros for the next 20 hours minimum of footage"

c) The Hound still being on Arya's kill list - Who knows, maybe they will show her taking him out of it next episode, but I feel like his still being on the kill list at this late stage in their relationship sort of undermines how close they have become. I think the lack of the Mountain in the last few seasons of the show also makes his presence on Arya's kill list a bit less justifiable than it plainly is in the books. I am really getting hacked off at how little the Mountain has been portrayed - if the Viper vs the Mountain is the crucial 9th episode, I really think he should have been a bit more present throughout to make the dramatic effect this episode strong.

The silver lining:

I did, however, like the bits of possible book foreshadowing - Arya's expanded kill list including both Red Priests, Thoros and Melisandre suggests to me, maybe that the followers of the faith of Rh'llor may yet be defeated, for better or for worse.

Watch more carefully, Jojen sees fire in his hand. When it cuts to Bran looking at Jojen, no fire. It was a vision, nothing more. Probably just more Dany foreshadowing, you know, the best kind.

[Queen Ayras Lord Commander]

I miss Varys. The show has had so much fun with him sparring against Littlefinger so it feels weird to see Littlefinger ascendant while Varys' only move lately has been to try to get Shae out of Kings Landing. I know Varys has some moves up his sleeve for this season and the next one and I know it makes perfect sense for him to lie low while Tywin is in Kings Landing, but I miss him!

Reread the epilogue from ADWD. His time will come, my friend.

[The Taxman]

I pray that there is no Quentyn, it will be a blessing, LOL.

I don't really care about Vic, but my guess is that the Greyjoys are going to be more important in subsequent books so they will have to at least have one of them.

Screw Quentyn. Dude is useless and makes Dorne looked weak as hell. However, they better cast Darkstar for next season!

And he better look good. I hope they don't cast no angry ugly old dude. Darkstar is younger than Oberyn.

[The Taxman]

Reread the epilogue from ADWD. His time will come, my friend.

His time will come in the finale of next season.

[Kikiadiamond]

I think most of the acting in this episode was strong actually. The only two I wasnt that impressed with are LF and Dany/Emilia. They seemed much weaker than the others this episode. (I'm not a big fan of LF's actor at all this season actually)

I liked Little Finger this time- his scene with Lysa demonstrated that he is not in control of all things, which makes his "mastermind" skills appear more human. He looked like he had swallowed some of those lemons whole when he got cornered.

I agree about Dany, and I usually like her. This episode she seemed really unnatural. I think everything would have been much better if the show was two hours though, lol. Then she wouldn't have had to make her decision to change her entire life's focus (taking the Iron throne) in two minutes.

I actually like the added story line for Bran a lot, his plot was one of my least favorite in the book but I'm quite interested in his show storyline.

[Moët]

Pouring one out (of a skull) for THE FOOKING LEGEND OF GIN ALLEY , you were a fantastic dickhead. Hopefully Burn Gorman is on to a bigger and brighter future, perhaps including the lead role in a Willem Defoe biopic.

Backstabbed by a daughter-wife, right after spitting in Jon's eye and praising the pros of Not Fighting With Honor. And then Jon flanked him like a boss. A backstabby boss. CONCLUSION: Jon "know nothing" Snow learning how to not fight with honor when necessary. Here's hoping anyway, it's a valuable lesson to learn, especially when you're fixin' to be The Hero of this whole shebang. Now that Ghost is back, there should be plenty of opportunity for effective dishonorable flanking. Was half expecting Ghost to bring the pain on THE FOOKING LEGEND OF GIN ALLEY , but there's fine closure in it being a daughter-wife.

Really enjoyed the finer points of how and why they kept Jon and Bran from meeting. Locke fudging his recon report to lead Jon away from where he'd find him, and Bran making the sacrifice/tough decision not to let Jon know he's alive. Which is back in concert with the books, even though Bran's making the decision in a different spot and with different people around.

And mentioned already in passing, but how about the loafer of the Direwolves, GHOST, finally putting in some work? Welcome back, whitey. As soon as Edd's mutineer head count came up short, and Rast was named as the short head, you just knew what was coming. No kill-stealing here, Ghost finally got to add a deserved notch to his score-sheet.

Screw Dany, HODOR~! is the true Breaker of Chains. Did not expect Locke to go down this quickly, but it's a good time and a good way to write him out. Dummy made his move on Starksassination too quickly (where's Rickon?) and paid the price. Also liked Hodor staring accusingly (and fearfully) at his hands, reminding us that Regulatin' on Locke is very much not his nature, and laying the groundwork for how This Is Not Okay, even though it was for the greater good this week, Bran is going down an unpleasant path by Warging Into Hodor.

I guess Locke WON'T be the man whose ear Brienne bites off, after all. Even though it sounds like she's heading that way. She thinks Sansa's heading off to meet Jon at The Wall. Dead wrong, of course, as we know, but it's a better plan than her book plan. Come to think of it, why didn't she think of that possibility in the books? I guess Cat wouldn't have mentioned Jon's existence :) but then how did she learn about Jon as a possibility in the show? Maybe Jaime remembered him, I guess.

So Ser Milady has a plan, and a still-unclaimed reservation at Ear Restaurant. Plenty to look forward to.

MACE TYRELL SHOWED UP THIS WEEK. Maybe next week he'll get to actually talk. He's the one judge we didn't see Cersei talk to this week, she still owes him a lobbyin'. Also got half of Loras' head in one shot. That's a pretty successful week for Male Tyrells.

"Meryn Trant? The so called best swordsman of all time got killed by Meryn Fucking Trant?" Awesome. Loving The Hound.

Sophie Turner with the greatest "fuck this" face while trying to get some sleep listening to Aunt Lysa's O-voice. And "Alayne" is a niece now. Hrmm. As a fan of Sansa playing "bastard" laying the groundwork for appreciation of and reuniting with Jon Snow someday, I'm disappointed by this change. But really, it's probably not that big a deal overall, just to me.

I guess it makes the proposed marriage to Robin less squicky and incesty if they're not "officially" step-siblings already.

Speaking of which, fucking love the little detail of Robin being overjoyed to see "Uncle" Petyr, adoring the little glass falcon gift, but immediately losing interest in it and chucking it out the Moon Door.

Speaking of which, Lysa is crazy as hell. Manic Much? From almost breaking Sansa's hands to cradling her head in seconds. Oh, and how about getting the big reveal about how she lied in letter to Cat, and actually was the one who poisoned Jon Arryn.

CERSEI REMEMBERED MYRCELLA EXISTS. Way to take the first step on that path to not being a shitty mom!

Kinda was hoping for a tension-breaking joke, or any sort of light hearted one-liner, from the newly crowned King Tommen I. I guess the smile is enough for now.

In other kingsguard recaps, Pod goes the idiot-savant route by being completely useless to Brienne and annoying her until she finally asks "Did you do ANYTHING useful as Tyrion's squire?" to which Pod of course reminds us of the time he made the world a better place by ganking Mandon Moore with a spear (though Moore goes unnamed). And then Brienne throws him a bone by letting him undo her straps. D'awwwwww.

Oberyn appeared in this episode and did NOT have sex with anyone. Fortunately his Average Lays Per Episode (ALPE) is still in fine shape thanks to that foursome that got interrupted by Tywin two weeks ago.

Speaking of which, Tywin is at last admitting that The Iron Bank is a problem. When Tywin says "you do NOT fuck with these guys" guess what? It means you REALLY don't fuck with these guys. And we get a tangible reason why, even in a "post-war" scenario, the Lannisters still need the Tyrells. The Gold Mines are OVER, the crown still owes that debt Robert racked up, so letting the second richest family marry into the crown means they can use the Tyrells to pay off the debt. Of course, once upon a time the Tyrells were a major creditor of Robert's crown themselves. So much for getting that back :)

And Dany knows that Joffrey is dead. Barristan The Smug thinks they can take King's Landing NOW. Daario takes a shot at us book readers waiting decades for Dany's invasion by mentioning off hand "oh yeah, that fleet you need? I got that." 93 ships. 8000 Unsullied and 2000 Mercs, Drogon is a Big Boy, and the Offcial Flag Of Team Targaryen is stitched and ready to go as of last week, there is no reason for Dany to hold back a second longer, she's finally got everything she needs to retake her homeland while it's at its most vulnerable so here we go at last with the invaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaait a minute. Jorah The Fedorah, looking even more haggard than usual, once upon a time the man on this team most eager to get the fuck back to Westeros so much so that he was spying on Dany for Varys (where did that plot element go? Did Salladhor Saan steal it on his way out of the show?), is now saying Don't Go Back To Westeros. Jorah does mention "we might not have enough for KL. We definitely don't have enough for the whole country." He does NOT mention that the proposed invasion plan is probably pretty stupid because Stannis the Mannis recently tried the exact same thing and if he couldn't get it to work it ain't working.

In the end, Dany decides to do what is, really, the responsible thing. Also the boring thing. Fedorah tells her about how Yunkai and Astapor have slipped back into the same old shit without her literally squatting on them to make her reforms stick. "How can I rule seven kingdoms if I can't hold my own castle Slaver's Bay?" Careful, Dany, you're skirting close to Robb Stark territory. Just make sure you don't get smitten with somebody below your station and blow your chance at a powe.............. aww dammit.

Barristan really is getting very non-canon these days. Hasn't kicked an ass since killing that Manticore in S3 E1, all he seems to do is get sauced in Dany's tent and act as Chief Administrator Of Dissing The Enemy in Dany's council meetings. Jorah doesn't even feel threatened by him (and his potential to blow Jorah's secret) anymore. Weird. The actors sold that element well with some solid eyes-only acting last year.

But I may have enjoyed the "Next Week" preview most of all, what with the glimpses of two long-missing faces I'm overeager to see again.

I love your writing so much!!! HILARIOUS.

1000000+ for use of the word "ganking."

[Newstar]

Yeah, what's up with that?

Well, NCW always used his natural hair colour, and the list of actors who dyed their hair for GOT is a short one. I think PD used a blonder wig for the first season, but it looked pretty rough.

[RavenKing23]

im going to have to re-read the fight (after ep 8 airs) to confirm, but I remember getting the feeling that Oberyn was just toying around with Gregor...i have this image in my mind that Oberyn was pretty much walking circles around Gregor, cool as a cucumber and Gregor was huffing and puffing and sweating and struggling to keep up and get a shot in

cant wait to see how it is depicted in the show! :drool:

I got a totally different feel from it. Gregor kept up with Oberyn pretty well until his head started hurting. Hell, Gregor knocked Oberyn's spear right out of his hands when he got close and again when Oberyn got in close for the finisher Gregor crushed him. I don't think anyone can beat Gregor in close combat

[Grayven]

I just have to restate how in-conceived and poorly executed the entire Lock subplot was this season. I like the actor and his performance, but what a train wreck.

Let's recap. Locke is sent on an assassination mission to wipe out the remaining Stark heirs in the North. He miraculously moves from the Dreadfort to Castle Black in record time while the Wildling's mill about in the Reach eating and killing locals. He then ingratiates himself with Jon Snow, presumably to eventually kill him at an opportune moment. He, logically, then joins Jon's mission to kill the Night's Watch rapers at Craster's Keep.

For some reason, Locke of all people is sent to scout Craster's Keep. The one guy on the mission who has never ever seen Craster's camp?!?! What the hell? He then super conveniently stumbles onto Team Bran and decides during the planned assault he is now going to kidnap Bran? To what end? He is going to take Bran south to the Boltons? Past Castle Black and rest of the Night's Watch? Even though, he was sent to kill off heirs?

It hurts my head....

Absolutely. He seemed a bright guy, and yet he does absolutely everything wrong from a Bolton point of view.. but everything right from the perspective of sweeping evidence of the Craster's Keep filler-plot back under the rug. If he 'needed' Rickon, don't we think he might have wanted to ASK about him to see if he was elsewhere in the camp before revealing his dark intentions? His role was to be incredibly stupid and get killed so the writers wouldn't face the logical outcome of their previous writing. A shame, really, as the actor was killing it.

[Gustavo]

So.. what's with Jojen and the fire?

[Tyrion Hand of the King]

I got a totally different feel from it. Gregor kept up with Oberyn pretty well until his head started hurting. Hell, Gregor knocked Oberyn's spear right out of his hands when he got close and again when Oberyn got in close for the finisher Gregor crushed him. I don't think anyone can beat Gregor in close combat

Yes in close combat. The point is if Oberyn were only concerned with killing Gregor and not drawing a confession he could've finished him off without ever needing to get as close as he eventually did.

[binhorde]

Bran saw Ghost when he warged Summer just before they were caught. I don't think he would just release Summer and abandon Ghost.

Right, which is what I pretty much think happened. But it still doesn't explain the crows. It was just the episode prior 404 where they had almost the same scene, Rast standing in front of the cage in the same spot, after having left the infant and the sound of approaching crows scaring him off. This was obviously insinuating the White Walkers were near to collect the infant. So, that's why the sound of the crows right before Ghost rips his head off, was confusing to me. They obviously meant to add it, because it was done in the editing process, but I still am unsure what they were trying to insinuate with it. Because with no Coldhands, they have only used this when the White Walkers are near.

[Vegeta_Greyjoy]

Poor Sam. His cowardly bully got his just desserts, and people are only satisfied because he taunted Ghost.

[ladyinblack]

Ramsey was cut all across his chest...of course with him that could have just been foreplay

LOL!

[Hodor's Dragon]

The exposition wasn't clumsy, the acting was bad. And we don't need 'visuals' to understand what they mean by 'Every place you liberated is going to hell'. It makes sense without seeing it.

Oh no, I have to disagree. Meryl Streep and Sir Laurence Olivier couldn't've sold that line or two as solid reasons for Dany not to invade Westeros now.

They needed a refugee stumbling into the throne room with the news. Somebody human, with lines and a story to tell. Ups the ante tremendously over a couple of throw-away lines that will be forgotten in a week or two.

[RavenKing23]

Yes in close combat. The point is if Oberyn were only concerned with killing Gregor and not drawing a confession he could've finished him off without ever needing to get as close as he eventually did.

If I remeber correctly he was just about to stap Gregor in the eye with his own sword. I doubt he really thought he would get a confession since he was moments from making the kill. He underestimated Gregor's strength. The only way he coulda won was if he used instant poison, once in range of Gregor's sword or hands (even crippled and speared to the ground) anyone would be dead

[madprofessah]

Interesting stuff! I QUITE liked this episode. I was on the edge of my seat wondering if Bran and Jon's paths were going to cross. (After the reveal in S4E04 who knows who far B&B will deviate from the books!)

Did anyone notice Cersei say she has been Queen for 19 years? That's a heck of a long time! And also remember Joffrey saying that his "uncle Jaime"

is a washed-up 40-year old? Well, Jaime and Cersei are twins so Cersei is also 40.

But I thought Cersei was a teen bride? There's some numbers that do not sem to be adding up there.

Also, what was up with Ser Jorah saying that they had been fighting "Joffrey's wars fo years" in Westeros? How long, exactly was King Joffrey's reign?

And whats up with crowning King Tommen when that has yet to officially happen in the books? I, myself, am looking forward to seeing the rise

to power of the High Septon and Cersei being hoist on her own petard.

Charles Dance needs an Emmy!

That is all.

[Conchobar]

Why does the Eeyrie look completely different to how it looked in Season 1?

[Grail King]

just more then halfway through and my thought on Sansa and the ring is she still considers herself married and is keeping it on until she feels she could take it off or she is using it for some sort of future protection since she no longer has the strangler.