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[Book Spoilers] EP405 Discussion

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Jojen's bit of dialogue with Bran also reeked of potential book spoilers:



Jojen: We're only here to guide you. He's waiting for you. We have to find it. You have to make it.


Bran: We will.


Jojen (to Bran): This...this isn't the end. Not for you. Not yet.


Meera: How...will we know the end?


Jojen (looks at his hand, which is burning): You'll know.



It almost seems like the show is implying that Bran and/or Meera die by burning, but I doubt the show would be that on the nose.


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my least favorite epi; I hate the way Cersei is played, she always seems whitewashed. She's a crazy, aggressive, manipulative you know what, I love to hate in the books, she is so boring here. Occasionally, when she's drunk, the real one shows up. I am just happy Jon has Ghost back; hopefully they will actually be together; like Summer is with Bran. oh well, I'll do another watch....but hey, not all 10 can be great, right? What about the Vale? I need to reread some chapters, I don't remember that letter and Jon A, all being done by Peter. And Oberyn? that was the way they decided to show that he is a poet as well?


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Because the Hound makes it clear that its absolutely ridiculous for the first sword of Braavos to have been bested by Trant. I'm not saying I necessarily believe Syrio is alive but that's why people are saying that part hinted to it.

Did you miss his last line stating Meryn killed Syrio because Meryn had armor and a 'big fucking sword'? - and Syrio didn't?

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Thoroughly disappointed that they revealed the Jon Arryn thing in THIS episode. THOROUGHLY! When I read that part in the book, it seriously made my jaw drop. In my mind, it was a massive part of the whole Snow Castle sequence, that, quite frankly, made it EPIC to me. That they would reveal it now--along with putting so much emphasis on the Moon Door and Lysa's jealousy--really just...crushes me. I feel that when Snow Castle does happen, it won't have nearly the same impact. I'm so very disappointed.

1000000% how I feel. I put up with almost all of their changes silently, but this one really bothered me.

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well this post convinces me maybe they should be less subtle

hey, sorry, it's hard to remember those made-up scenes!

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It was also a prosthetic breast, which probably helped.

Was it? I wondered that, because it seemed so firm and supple, and Lysa's frame is more gaunt. As a pre-teen actor, if that had been me, when I found out it was going to be just a prosthetic breast I would have been depressed. :P

Edited by P. frontalis chiripepe

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so Kevan was in charge of all their finances? he didn't like frivolity & thought he was concerned with Cerseis spending

He was concerned because she was irresponsible, but said that at worst they would have to dip into the Lannisters' own finances. And yes, Kevan was the head of the family at that point, and Tywin's right hand man. If their mines were dry, he would know. For that matter, somebody in Robb's army would have noticed that when they were rampaging through the Westerlands.

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A trueborn niece would be way harder to produce out of thin air than a bastard. There are records kept of the genealogies of noble houses; "Alayne", if she were trueborn, would be expected to be listed in stuff like that.

Children of cousins are cousins at a certain remove. A child of Littlefinger's first cousin would be a first cousin, once removed.

im guessing lysa would despise sansa even more if he said she was his bastard, thus further supporting some speculation that she thinks sansa is actually pety's bastard with catelyn. considering how little d&d regards the intelligence of show viers with their conspicous writing, saying she was his daughter may create some conflict and confusion

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I personally don't mind the Jon Arryn reveal coming this early. I hated that exposition dump in the books prior to the murder attempt: cheesy villain(ess) monologuing, very clumsy writing. This breaks it up a little. It's still clumsy, but it won't break up the tension in the scene where Lysa is trying to kill Sansa with a bunch of expository villainess monologuing explaining in great detail exactly what Lysa's deal is. Likewise for the scene with Sansa in this episode where Lysa shows her crazy, jealous side early on.


Edited by Newstar

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Or a cousin. Nieces and nephews can also be the children of cousins.

Anyway, I like it's his niece. It kinda makes sense and it's more logical than suddenly show up with a bastard. A niece, he could have decided to bring her to his new permanent residence in the Vale because he wanted to look for a good marriage, which is probably what are his real plans.

But I love the idea that Sansa models her bastard persona after her brother Jon Snow. Of course, that angle would probably be completely lost on the unsullied, but not on us.

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Are you sure you arent letting AFFC Cersei affect your opinion of ASOS Cersei ? Tywin's death had a major impact on her personality.

perhaps, she always seem predictable to me is all, yes people lose it all the time and some never had it at all.

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Or a cousin. Nieces and nephews can also be the children of cousins.

Anyway, I like it's his niece. It kinda makes sense and it's more logical than suddenly show up with a bastard. A niece, he could have decided to bring her to his new permanent residence in the Vale because he wanted to look for a good marriage, which is probably what are his real plans.

He owns a brothel. It seems normal that he would have a bastard from there...

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...............i dont remember the Lannisters being all out of gold in the books, they are broke?

I took it to mean they aren't out of money, just not able to produce new coin cause the mining is all done. They don't really have source of new income through their mines.

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Pouring one out (of a skull) for THE FOOKING LEGEND OF GIN ALLEY , you were a fantastic dickhead. Hopefully Burn Gorman is on to a bigger and brighter future, perhaps including the lead role in a Willem Defoe biopic.



Backstabbed by a daughter-wife, right after spitting in Jon's eye and praising the pros of Not Fighting With Honor. And then Jon flanked him like a boss. A backstabby boss. CONCLUSION: Jon "know nothing" Snow learning how to not fight with honor when necessary. Here's hoping anyway, it's a valuable lesson to learn, especially when you're fixin' to be The Hero of this whole shebang. Now that Ghost is back, there should be plenty of opportunity for effective dishonorable flanking. Was half expecting Ghost to bring the pain on THE FOOKING LEGEND OF GIN ALLEY , but there's fine closure in it being a daughter-wife.



Really enjoyed the finer points of how and why they kept Jon and Bran from meeting. Locke fudging his recon report to lead Jon away from where he'd find him, and Bran making the sacrifice/tough decision not to let Jon know he's alive. Which is back in concert with the books, even though Bran's making the decision in a different spot and with different people around.



And mentioned already in passing, but how about the loafer of the Direwolves, GHOST, finally putting in some work? Welcome back, whitey. As soon as Edd's mutineer head count came up short, and Rast was named as the short head, you just knew what was coming. No kill-stealing here, Ghost finally got to add a deserved notch to his score-sheet.



Screw Dany, HODOR~! is the true Breaker of Chains. Did not expect Locke to go down this quickly, but it's a good time and a good way to write him out. Dummy made his move on Starksassination too quickly (where's Rickon?) and paid the price. Also liked Hodor staring accusingly (and fearfully) at his hands, reminding us that Regulatin' on Locke is very much not his nature, and laying the groundwork for how This Is Not Okay, even though it was for the greater good this week, Bran is going down an unpleasant path by Warging Into Hodor.



I guess Locke WON'T be the man whose ear Brienne bites off, after all. Even though it sounds like she's heading that way. She thinks Sansa's heading off to meet Jon at The Wall. Dead wrong, of course, as we know, but it's a better plan than her book plan. Come to think of it, why didn't she think of that possibility in the books? I guess Cat wouldn't have mentioned Jon's existence :) but then how did she learn about Jon as a possibility in the show? Maybe Jaime remembered him, I guess.



So Ser Milady has a plan, and a still-unclaimed reservation at Ear Restaurant. Plenty to look forward to.



MACE TYRELL SHOWED UP THIS WEEK. Maybe next week he'll get to actually talk. He's the one judge we didn't see Cersei talk to this week, she still owes him a lobbyin'. Also got half of Loras' head in one shot. That's a pretty successful week for Male Tyrells.



"Meryn Trant? The so called best swordsman of all time got killed by Meryn Fucking Trant?" Awesome. Loving The Hound.



Sophie Turner with the greatest "fuck this" face while trying to get some sleep listening to Aunt Lysa's O-voice. And "Alayne" is a niece now. Hrmm. As a fan of Sansa playing "bastard" laying the groundwork for appreciation of and reuniting with Jon Snow someday, I'm disappointed by this change. But really, it's probably not that big a deal overall, just to me.



I guess it makes the proposed marriage to Robin less squicky and incesty if they're not "officially" step-siblings already.



Speaking of which, fucking love the little detail of Robin being overjoyed to see "Uncle" Petyr, adoring the little glass falcon gift, but immediately losing interest in it and chucking it out the Moon Door.



Speaking of which, Lysa is crazy as hell. Manic Much? From almost breaking Sansa's hands to cradling her head in seconds. Oh, and how about getting the big reveal about how she lied in letter to Cat, and actually was the one who poisoned Jon Arryn.



CERSEI REMEMBERED MYRCELLA EXISTS. Way to take the first step on that path to not being a shitty mom!



Kinda was hoping for a tension-breaking joke, or any sort of light hearted one-liner, from the newly crowned King Tommen I. I guess the smile is enough for now.



In other kingsguard recaps, Pod goes the idiot-savant route by being completely useless to Brienne and annoying her until she finally asks "Did you do ANYTHING useful as Tyrion's squire?" to which Pod of course reminds us of the time he made the world a better place by ganking Mandon Moore with a spear (though Moore goes unnamed). And then Brienne throws him a bone by letting him undo her straps. D'awwwwww.



Oberyn appeared in this episode and did NOT have sex with anyone. Fortunately his Average Lays Per Episode (ALPE) is still in fine shape thanks to that foursome that got interrupted by Tywin two weeks ago.



Speaking of which, Tywin is at last admitting that The Iron Bank is a problem. When Tywin says "you do NOT fuck with these guys" guess what? It means you REALLY don't fuck with these guys. And we get a tangible reason why, even in a "post-war" scenario, the Lannisters still need the Tyrells. The Gold Mines are OVER, the crown still owes that debt Robert racked up, so letting the second richest family marry into the crown means they can use the Tyrells to pay off the debt. Of course, once upon a time the Tyrells were a major creditor of Robert's crown themselves. So much for getting that back :)



And Dany knows that Joffrey is dead. Barristan The Smug thinks they can take King's Landing NOW. Daario takes a shot at us book readers waiting decades for Dany's invasion by mentioning off hand "oh yeah, that fleet you need? I got that." 93 ships. 8000 Unsullied and 2000 Mercs, Drogon is a Big Boy, and the Offcial Flag Of Team Targaryen is stitched and ready to go as of last week, there is no reason for Dany to hold back a second longer, she's finally got everything she needs to retake her homeland while it's at its most vulnerable so here we go at last with the invaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaait a minute. Jorah The Fedorah, looking even more haggard than usual, once upon a time the man on this team most eager to get the fuck back to Westeros so much so that he was spying on Dany for Varys (where did that plot element go? Did Salladhor Saan steal it on his way out of the show?), is now saying Don't Go Back To Westeros. Jorah does mention "we might not have enough for KL. We definitely don't have enough for the whole country." He does NOT mention that the proposed invasion plan is probably pretty stupid because Stannis the Mannis recently tried the exact same thing and if he couldn't get it to work it ain't working.



In the end, Dany decides to do what is, really, the responsible thing. Also the boring thing. Fedorah tells her about how Yunkai and Astapor have slipped back into the same old shit without her literally squatting on them to make her reforms stick. "How can I rule seven kingdoms if I can't hold my own castle Slaver's Bay?" Careful, Dany, you're skirting close to Robb Stark territory. Just make sure you don't get smitten with somebody below your station and blow your chance at a powe.............. aww dammit.



Barristan really is getting very non-canon these days. Hasn't kicked an ass since killing that Manticore in S3 E1, all he seems to do is get sauced in Dany's tent and act as Chief Administrator Of Dissing The Enemy in Dany's council meetings. Jorah doesn't even feel threatened by him (and his potential to blow Jorah's secret) anymore. Weird. The actors sold that element well with some solid eyes-only acting last year.



But I may have enjoyed the "Next Week" preview most of all, what with the glimpses of two long-missing faces I'm overeager to see again.


Edited by Sour Robin

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Watch the viewership drop now that non book readers know Dany is going to do shit for years.

Yeah, when she said she wasn't going to Westeros, I felt a great disturbance in the Force... as if millions of viewers sighed in exasperation, and were suddenly... angry.

Edited by Pib_Juju

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my least favorite epi; I hate the way Cersei is played, she always seems whitewashed. She's a crazy, aggressive, manipulative you know what, I love to hate in the books, she is so boring here.

I know. I wish we could have seen manipulative Cersei like, try and get in good with the judges for Tyrion's upcoming trial and maybe even promise them things she abhors in an attempt to secure their votes.

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Or a cousin. Nieces and nephews can also be the children of cousins.

Anyway, I like it's his niece. It kinda makes sense and it's more logical than suddenly show up with a bastard. A niece, he could have decided to bring her to his new permanent residence in the Vale because he wanted to look for a good marriage, which is probably what are his real plans.

And they clue SweetRobin in on "Alayne"'s true identity because the kid is such a model of discretion and self-control.

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I enjoyed the Vale. Although, I liked the action at Craster's I am puzzled as to why the show dropped Coldhands in favor of this plot line. Cold hands offers action, adventure and makes more sense. In the end, the Bran hostage story line feels contrived. I did like the peak into Jojen's visions.


Edited by Bear Claw

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im guessing lysa would despise sansa even more if he said she was his bastard, thus further supporting some speculation that she thinks sansa is actually pety's bastard with catelyn.

What? Why would Lysa think Sansa was Petyr's daughter? Catelyn was way up in the middle of the North; and Petyr transparently wants to bone Sansa.

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