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[Book Spoilers] EP405 Discussion

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the fact that the show isnt nearly as well done as the books, considering the poor writing from d&d, it is personally troubling that grrm focuses less time on the books (much better than the show given the writing of course) and more time on the show that inevitably we wait longer for the books. all in good time i guess.

They are both excellent in their own right. Book is better in some ways, and the show has improved the story in others.

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When he readies his knives as bows to "Lord Snow", my heart started racing. Shit was perfectly executed. I think it's awesome that Jon can't actually defeat him in single combat, because the way Craster's wife does him in is just way more compelling than him losing outright.

Same here...was so, so looking forward to that fight all week long and it didn't disappoint at all. I liked that they made it realistic in that Jon had trouble using his sword inside close quarters. And finally a woman gets revenge. Just loved it.

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I feel is, "Oh *****" face when she opened the door with the Septon ready to marry, made up for that.

I didn't recognize what was happening at first with the septon and all, but when i did i burst up laughing.

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Duuuuuude! Karl is fucking amazing with those knives! WOW!

Im just glad Ghost got to gnaw on someone's dome!

FOOKING LEGEND

And yeah, it's about time Ghost got to pad his Killsheet. :)

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I can't decide whether Robin knowing who "Alayne" is (which is a harmless change, incidentally, based on the published material; and presumably also according to the unpublished) is just the writers half-assing this whole secret identity thing, or because they want Sansa to have somebody other than Littlefinger to talk to openly next year.


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I felt like this episode was classic Cersei: giving away the horse to achieve what you want in the moment. Constantly thinking she's the smartest one in the room and not realizing that Marg was so on to her with the "sister or mother" comment. Cersei's problem has always been that what she wants to accomplish is always too tied to emotions and it makes her act desperate. Things just get worse after Tywin dies because at least she trusts him.



Loved that the girl Karl was abusing was the one to put the knife in his back. Not surprised all the women were basically like "everything with a dick needs to pack it on up and get out of our site."



Didn't care about the Jon Arryn reveal and loved the look on Sansa's face when she heard about marrying Sweet Robin. I kinda like Sansa knowing the score with Lyssa right away, will be interesting to see how she moves forward the next few episodes.



Arya and the Hound, filler but I love them. Craster's Keep was wrapped us as best as they could but felt it was more about needing to give Jon a "leadership" moment outside of the wall since Thorne is still around (the butterfly effect GRRM talked about). Also, with Locke eliminated sticking by my theory that Bowen Marsh will be comign in next season for Eastwatch by the Sea. My theory is that's where Stannis lands before moving inland


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Actually, it makes me wonder if BR had a hand in freeing Ghost, because the ravens started to caw and suddenly the door is open and Ghost is gone.

I assumed Hodor and co. let him out when they rescued Summer. The caws could have been used to add to Rast's anxiety about Ghost being free and nowhere to be seen. That's what I got from it anyway.

Edited by Vetur Kemur

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So, a relatively pedestrian episode, but definitely better than the previous two weeks.



Becayuse in the end, they treat women badly everywhere….



What I liked:



The Hero: Jon’s Snow’s liberation of Crater’s Keep- and lets just forget the convenient plot device of Bran et al for a moment – was a very well-done and focused scene. I greatly appreciate the construction of the event- set up and delivery were all well done. But maybe the highlight was that- at long last – a hero … acted like a hero and did something …heroic. When that moment is taken for its own identity- that good people don’t deserve to have terrible things happen to them and that those with power should use that power to help them – we can see the true greatness of not only Jon but of any character in the series.



It was yet another sincere example about how “show Jon” is a vastly superior product than “book Jon.”



And nice cameo by Ghost.



The Scars of the Vale: Lysa Aryn’s mania was perfectly captured in her compulsive hatred of all those things pretty: Lysa and Cat. But more – her desperation to please the man she thinks knows everything. While we can all marvel at Littlefinger’s plot-building, it’s a gigantic example of how cruel this world can be to people who are born and bread to be helpless. Just as Hoster Tully screwed up raising Lysa, so did Ned and Cat not properly prepare the world for Sansa. This has catapulted Sansa into this universe that is undeniably cruel to her- multiple kidnappings, marriages, and a feeling of free-fall as she is now in the clutches of an incredibly horrible LYsa- in some cases, literally in her clutches. That scene with Lysa grabbing Sansa and holding her and watching as Sansa cries (yes- somebody tell m again how bad an actress she is…. The woman is fucking amazing).



And even as Lysa is screeching the words- that she poisoned Jon and got Cat to take Tyrion etc… - we heard Sansa start barking out statements about how stupid she was; how LF calls her stupid and can’t figure things out …



Except … Peter never said ANY of that. Sansa said that …. It’s incredible – she has imported her own self-hatred; her own-self-doubt, her own self-deception and translated it all into words. SHE feels that way about herself; SHE hates that she does not have it all figured out; SHE hates that she can’t be smarter or wittier or more understanding than the rest.



And so… they really do torture girls… everywhere. Even in their own heads.



Where is the Gold Buried: Tywin has become the show-runners’ binkie: he has been an intragal part of every episode since “Blackwater” and once again he dropped bombs on the audience and dragged out the truth for others to comprehend. And he agreed with Cersei, which si no small feat.



A Pod Mod: I always liked Pod and the show has added more dimension to him and given his character; here is that he does well even when he has no idea what he is doing. Because of all of Pod’s characteristics, determination seems to be his most endearing.



Just like Brienne.



The Regency of Pain: Cersei’s view of the world was spot-on; girls- women – are hurt everywhere. And crowing about how good you are does not change that. I liked how even Obyrn was aware of how hollow his words were when faced with Cersei's understanding of what a society does to their women. There is a lot about Cersei not to like, but one thing we all know- she loves her children and knows the pain they are in. Better than Anyone. Because a woman knows...



I am the One Who Makes the List: Arya’s scenes were exceptional (and I enjoyed her water-dancing), but in the end, the greatest swordsman who ever lived is dead because a man with a sword and armor killed him. And the Hound told everyone- including Internet-conspiracy wonks- just how true that was.



A Hodor Knows: As super-cool as it was to watch Hodor snap an asshole’s neck at the shoulder (fuck … me ), the scene were Hodor sees blood on his hands spoke volumes. Bran took the free-will of another human being and used it for his own ends; he used Hodor as a means to an ends at the expense of Hodor’s free-will and humanity. IT odes not matter how good of an act it was, when Hodor looks down and sees a dead man and blood on his own hands…



… all I know is Tywin Lannister would have been proud. And the Stark apologists can’t tell me it’s not all the same thing.




What I am on the Fence About:



A Lannister Always Pays His Debts… But We are a Little Short This Week: Wealth does not require gold-mines but and I understand why the West may run out of gold (all gold mines do, eventually), but the idea that the Lannisters are empty is a little… convenient. I found it unnecessary, but it also can be an opportunity for the show to expound on other ideas. Regardless, it left me underwhelmed.



Bran: A Completely Adequate Set of Scenes: So, other than the fact that Jojen may burn to the Red God (….meh….), I didn’t MIND Bran’s scenes… other than make me wish they didn't;’t have to have them in the first place. They were fine; I thought they saved some time and the actor’s SAG credits. HE can get paid in good conscious. At the same time… why? Was any of that necessary? I get why they did it and I can see it better, but ultimately I am left with the ringing in my ear of the contrived nature of all of it. I am glad its over (just as unresolved, pointless, and “Wea re Right Back Where We Started” Nature of it all). A bait-and-switch and none of it made much sense at all. But… hey… at least Bran was there… right?



What I did Not Like:



Did Weseroes Shrink: No Varys (how many lines has he had this season? 4?); no Bronn, no Jaime, no Stannis, no dragons (she’s captured 3 cities and we’ve seen them once), no Tyrion. No Tyrion. Look, I get it that there is more to this show than … the good stuff, but why are we wasting time with the thread-bare edges of the story when the main courses are going to waste? Did we forget the stuff we actually like? The show has to do more with less. You got 10 episodes and this one felt like we spent a lot more time on a lot less.



But hey… join us next week when we get to watch Stannis Baratheon fill out a loan application. Remember when he stormed a beach? Now watch him storm complex interest.



This has to change.


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I personally don't mind the Jon Arryn reveal coming this early. I hated that exposition dump in the books prior to the murder attempt: cheesy villain(ess) monologuing, very clumsy writing. This breaks it up a little. It's still clumsy, but it won't break up the tension in the scene where Lysa is trying to kill Sansa with a bunch of expository villainess monologuing explaining in great detail exactly what Lysa's deal is. Likewise for the scene with Sansa in this episode where Lysa shows her crazy, jealous side early on.

Agree wholeheartedly. I always thought that scene did not really work in the books, while the other guy thought it was jaw dropping good. I could argue it is better revealed in the show. Except three years on, not sure unsullied care or remember.

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4. White washing Dany some more

HORSESHIT. This episode told us what her actions ended up causing. Dany decides shes in Slaver's Bay for the long haul and the audience collectively groans.

When he readies his knives as bows to "Lord Snow", my heart started racing. Shit was perfectly executed. I think it's awesome that Jon can't actually defeat him in single combat, because the way Craster's wife does him in is just way more compelling than him losing outright.

Yeah. Jon isnt Balls-To-The-Wall-Awesome yet. Hes still got a ways to go before he can smush everything. So i found it more believable that Karl was really quick and tough for Jon to beat. Plus those girls deserved some payback. Longclaw through the fucken dome was epic.

They are both excellent in their own right. Book is better in some ways, and the show has improved the story in others.

I agree with this.

FOOKING LEGEND

And yeah, it's about time Ghost got to pad his Killsheet. :)

Heehee! Ghost's reunion with Jon was nice. BEAST! I got pretty sad that Jon didnt even see Bran. That kinda broke my heart.

Becayuse in the end, they treat women badly everywhere….

*contemptuous facepalm*

Edited by Florina Laufeyson

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Did anybody get the feeling during the Pod & Brienne wide shots that somebody was watching them?! Possibly BWB

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yeah, the writers are making a lot of gaffes this season an they are more noticeable it seems. informing robin about sansa's true identity. he casually mentions the death of sansa's parent without showing any awareness of empathy and giving little concern for being discrete. smooth move d&d


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I get that when a character doesn't die on screen, it's normally a sign that there's something more going on, but in this case I don't think it would work. His other resurrections serve specific narrative purposes, and I cannot for the life of me justify Syrio's survival on aesthetic grounds.

I never liked Beric and Stoneheart as developments. It's yet to be seen what the point of Stoneheart is. Each of them were raised pretty much out of the blue. At least with Syrio there is a bit of a question as to whether he's dead or not.

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And they clue SweetRobin in on "Alayne"'s true identity because the kid is such a model of discretion and self-control.

LOL loved that too and his casually skipping around an open moon door

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Arya added Beric & Thoros to her prayer? That's . . . weird. Could that be leading to something in the future between her and the BWB? Spoiler?

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I personally don't mind the Jon Arryn reveal coming this early. I hated that exposition dump in the books prior to the murder attempt: cheesy villain(ess) monologuing, very clumsy writing. This breaks it up a little. It's still clumsy, but it won't break up the tension in the scene where Lysa is trying to kill Sansa with a bunch of expository villainess monologuing explaining in great detail exactly what Lysa's deal is. Likewise for the scene with Sansa in this episode where Lysa shows her crazy, jealous side early on.

plus I bet they expand on it and connect the dots more so it won't be so over the head of viewers.

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Arya added Beric & Thoros to her prayer? That's . . . weird. Could that be leading to something in the future between her and the BWB? Spoiler?

No, it's just a consequence of them giving Gendry to Mel in the show.

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A master swordsman with no sword, is no longer a master swordsman.

Umm there were swords pretty much lying around the room.

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