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Ran

[Book Spoilers] EP405 Discussion

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Can someone possibly explain Bran's actions? We're captured - good. Hodor is being tortured - good. Women all around us are being raped and abused - good. Maera is about to be raped - good.

Locke shows up - ok, this has gone on JUST long enough, and NOW it's time to warg into Hodor (nevermind the fact that he recently had a spear put through his leg) and get us out of here.

WTF???

It's called really weak writing. D&D improvise REALLY BADLY.

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What a lifeless filler episode. So Craster's Keep was exactly as I feared, filler. An unnecessary detour, with the almost reunion of some Stark siblings thrown in, until we get to an eventual climax with the Wildlings. Even the battle scenes looked completely staged with little to no sense of drama. And what was with Locke's insane kidnapping of Bran plan? He is going to take him back over the Wall to the Bolton's? What the hell? Sigh...



If anything, this season is confirming my worst fears. I have no issue with any attempt to go off book, but Benioff and Weiss are just mediocre writing talents and it constantly shows. Lackluster dialogue, contrived scenes, and offering nothing more than superficial insight into the characters.


Edited by pleonasm

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Did they sort out the Loras-Cersei marriage pact?

Kinda sorta not really. Cersei punted again in her convo with Tywin. "A fortnight" for Tommen to mourn Joff before marrying, and Cersei said "A fortnight" after that for marrying Loras, and then she changed the subject and Tywin started Economics Chat.

So yeah, Cersei is continuing her stalling.

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It's called really weak writing. D&D improvise REALLY BADLY.

They do have a human weather-vane with them. I think the timing of Hodor's hijacking is up to Jojen's nod.

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- I'm really sad to see Locke go. He was one of the better show additions, certainly miles beyond Vargo Hoat and his gang of clowns. On the other hand I liked the scene, including Hodor looking in horror at his blood-soaked hands. I'm glad they highlighted the fallout of Bran possessing a simple man. Also liked the foreshadowing by Jojen.

Hodor's reaction to what was going on was really great. His shock and "wtf just happened? What did i just do?" expression...its pretty sad and kinda takes some of the heroism out of the moment. (which it should. Bran and the audience needs to realize just whats going on there.) I have to hand it to the actor. For someone whos basically got one line throughout the series, he can show what Hodor is really thinking.

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Whoa, I did not expect this side of Cersei at all.

Really... You didn't read into her sauve manipulation of her three victims. Mama Lion's was hugging her victims while sharpening her Axe for the ImpS head.

Oh how smooth she was with...

Margery she played like a fiddle. Touting the queen title for her... All while insuring that no more funny business will happen without her knowing and approving. But Marge I think saw through it while playing nice but spitting out should I call you sister or.... Wait for it..... Mother, or as we like to say, "you old bag!"

Lord Tywin, oh Daddy I will follow what you say. Just tell me what you plan to do about the imp. But she got shot down Tywin tells her straight out that he is a judge and can't be persuaded. Oh shit Cersi, you got played.. But wait a min daddy. You disowned Jamie for nothing more than him not following your plans for him and standing up to you. Oh what will you do for me your last and only loyal child? But don't forget daddy about the imp... Cheers!

Then she plays that snake like the charmer she is. She comes with guards unlike her father. She confides in him about her pain of losing her son to that of his sister and her child. She goes to state oh how she misses her daughter and wonders if she is alright. Making the dornish seem like vile vipers. Her Innocent daughter caught in their vile sex pits. Oh no she is shot down with the comment that they don't hurt little girls in dorne. But Cersi won't be out played by the snake charmer and bam comes back with, "everywhere in the world they hurt little girls." Has she charmed the snake into her basket?

Lordy, lordy this was such a great episode...

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It's funny to see people blast the show for its lack of subtlety, then have it whoosh past their head when the writers do display it. Cercei is obviously buttering up the judges for her trial. Using the ''family legacy'' angle on Tywin, the ''avenging our loved ones'' on Oberyn, and making false ammends towards Marge who is the brains behind her oaf of a father. Just look at her face when Marge calls her ''mother''. She's obviously holding back the screams.

For the people who say that this differs from Book!Cercei, I say: good. Book Cercei is a one-note, bitchy dumbass. She's entertaining to read about in a ''oh my god how stupid can she get?'' way, but she's not a multi-layered, grey character, especially from book 4 onwards. If the show decides to inject some cunning and/or sympathy in her, all the better. She's already far more interesting than her book counterpart.

Greyness does not make a character interesting. This notion that for a story to be entertaining the heroes and villains must be nigh indistinguishable is simply wrong.

Cersei in the show is not multiply layered. She is very much one note from the first season onwards. "Woe is I. Marred to a brute, mother to a psychopath. Men take all my power."

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Really... You didn't read into her sauve manipulation of her three victims. Mama Lion's was hugging her victims while sharpening her Axe for the ImpS head.

Oh how smooth she was with...

Margery she played like a fiddle. Touting the queen title for her... All while insuring that no more funny business will happen without her knowing and approving. But Marge I think saw through it while playing nice but spitting out should I call you sister or.... Wait for it..... Mother, or as we like to say, "you old bag!"

Lord Tywin, oh Daddy I will follow what you say. Just tell me what you plan to do about the imp. But she got shot down Tywin tells her straight out that he is a judge and can't be persuaded. Oh shit Cersi, you got played.. But wait a min daddy. You disowned Jamie for nothing more than him not following your plans for him and standing up to you. Oh what will you do for me your last and only loyal child? But don't forget daddy about the imp... Cheers!

Then she plays that snake like the charmer she is. She comes with guards unlike her father. She confides in him about her pain of losing her son to that of his sister and her child. She goes to state oh how she misses her daughter and wonders if she is alright. Making the dornish seem like vile vipers. Her Innocent daughter caught in their vile sex pits. Oh no she is shot down with the comment that they don't hurt little girls in dorne. But Cersi won't be out played by the snake charmer and bam comes back with, "everywhere in the world they hurt little girls." Has she charmed the snake into her basket?

Lordy, lordy this was such a great episode...

Well, we know the outcome re Oberyn, don't we?

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It's funny to see people blast the show for its lack of subtlety, then have it whoosh past their head when the writers do display it. Cercei is obviously buttering up the judges for her trial. Using the ''family legacy'' angle on Tywin, the ''avenging our loved ones'' on Oberyn, and making false ammends towards Marge who is the brains behind her oaf of a father. Just look at her face when Marge calls her ''mother''. She's obviously holding back the screams.

For the people who say that this differs from Book!Cercei, I say: good. Book Cercei is a one-note, bitchy dumbass. She's entertaining to read about in a ''oh my god how stupid can she get?'' way, but she's not a multi-layered, grey character, especially from book 4 onwards. If the show decides to inject some cunning and/or sympathy in her, all the better. She's already far more interesting than her book counterpart.

Not a fan of the Lannisters no longer having any gold, however. Not sure what it brings to the story. And like some have said, it makes Tyrion's eventual quest for Casterly Rock seem pretty pointless. We'll see how it plays out. Other thoughts:

- Loved Arya and the Hound. About time someone gave the she-wolf a reality check on how useful her dingy little blade actually is against anyone that's not already at her mercy. And she still wants the Hound dead.

- Dorky Pod could get old, but at least they got some development into him.

- Crazy Lysa was great. Loved LF's ''Do not want'' looks as she kissed him. And the screams they kept from the book, too. Poor Sansa.

- And let the Dany sitting around doing fuck-all phase commence. I really hope they at least try to spice it up so that it's not as boring as in the books. At least the illusion of perfect little Khalessi effortlessly freeing everyone and crapping rainbows is finally shattered.

- I'm really sad to see Locke go. He was one of the better show additions, certainly miles beyond Vargo Hoat and his gang of clowns. On the other hand I liked the scene, including Hodor looking in horror at his blood-soaked hands. I'm glad they highlighted the fallout of Bran possessing a simple man. Also liked the foreshadowing by Jojen.

- Attack on Craster's was nice, but the general fight was off. The show has just said that there were 11 men at the Keep, with no sentries, and Jon had, what, 6 guys total on his ranging including himself? Then his group charges into battle screaming like maniacs and start cutting down what seems like 20 or 30 guys, while losing 5 people which doesn't fit with his numbers. Liked the fight with Carl fucking Tanner, and to me it makes sense a fresh guy with daggers who was the best assassin in King's Landing would beat Jon, who's much less experienced, tired, using a sword in close quarters and learned to fight against armored/honorable opponents.

Good episode overall, but one of the season's weakest (which says a lot about the season's quality more than anything else IMO). But next week looks great.

So true.. So true.

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It's funny to see people blast the show for its lack of subtlety, then have it whoosh past their head when the writers do display it. Cercei is obviously buttering up the judges for her trial. Using the ''family legacy'' angle on Tywin, the ''avenging our loved ones'' on Oberyn, and making false ammends towards Marge who is the brains behind her oaf of a father. Just look at her face when Marge calls her ''mother''. She's obviously holding back the screams.

I'm one of those people who complains about the lack of subtlety and I still didn't notice at first that Cersei was simply acting out to play the judges. Sometimes, things pass over your head.

And, in Cersei's case, that's easy to miss because since the start of the show they have portrayed Cersei pretty much like a victim and a poor helpless mother, victim of everything and everybody, while we know that's not entirely true.

OTOH, Oberyn, Margaery and Tywin are also smart enough to know that there is something odd about Cersei being "nice".

Is Cersei just going to stall with no plan until daddy dies?

As we don't get a Cersei's POV before Tywin died, we can't tell if she was in the same situation in books. In book 3, we only have Tyrion's and Jaime's POVs as the closest thing to her mind, and she was quite desperate back then, asking Jaime for help to protect Tommen. Looks like she didn't have any plan, because she knew that Tywin Lannister isn't someone to be fooled.

Greyness does not make a character interesting. This notion that for a story to be entertaining the heroes and villains must be nigh indistinguishable is simply wrong.

Agree with this.

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As we don't get a Cersei's POV before Tywin died, we can't tell if she was in the same situation in books. In book 3, we only have Tyrion's and Jaime's POVs as the closest thing to her mind, and she was quite desperate back then, asking Jaime for help to protect Tommen. Looks like she didn't have any plan, because she knew that Tywin Lannister isn't someone to be fooled.

She didn't need a plan in the books, because the Tyrells refused to betroth her to Willas.

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She didn't need a plan in the books, because the Tyrells refused to betroth her to Willas.

It wasn't the only thing that bothered her. Tywin wanted to marry her, and even Oberyn was considered. That's why she probably tried to seduced him during the trial.

Also, he worried about the regency of Tommen, because Tywin insisted on marry her off and she would be away from Tommen.

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Yeah, they've let this marriage thing with Cersei and Loras drag out too long. I understand eliminating certain characters but I think now it was a mistake to wipe away Willas.



In an interesting bit of irony, Bran ends up killing the man (through Hodor) that maimed Jaime Lannister. Jaime will never know about that.


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Overall it was an okay episode, my favourite parts were the eyrie and crasters keep.



A bit nitpicky but it seems Tyrion is going to be continuously whitewashed and this time by Sansa, when she tried to defend him that he had no choice in the marriage.


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Greyness does not make a character interesting. This notion that for a story to be entertaining the heroes and villains must be nigh indistinguishable is simply wrong.

Cersei in the show is not multiply layered. She is very much one note from the first season onwards. "Woe is I. Marred to a brute, mother to a psychopath. Men take all my power."

You juster layered her.. " woe is me" marred to a brute. I should have been married to Jamie or if not at least to R! My son is sick son of a bitch, how will I control him? My father sends an imp and he takes my power, or tries too, my son doesn't listen to me he takes my power, my father and Jamie come back and take the last visage of power I have, my sex. One by forcing me on a homosexual. The other by being a lamed man who doesn't complete me anymore and rapes me on my sons death altar.

So what is a mother to do???

Well first I need to get rid of the imp. I need those judges to give me that imp's head! Oh I'll play nice to be them and stroke them, and mold them into my executioners. Because I know that if the imp is left to defend himself he'll slip out of the noose!

Seems to me she isn't so one noted as you stated. But lets face the facts George doesn't give Cersi any love, well maybe a little. He did give her that awesome walk of shame.

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lol book!cersei>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>show!cersei is every single fucking way. frankly i think we finally saw some book!cersei tonight. i could totally see cersei manipulating everyone in the book like she did in the show tonight. people forget that cersei is shortsighted not stupid. also i didn't see margaery's ~sister or mother~ line as clever that was actually a STUPID move on her part imo. i can't wait for margaery's downfall and inevitable death. i hate the tyrells.


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