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[Book Spoilers] EP405 Discussion

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Actually, it makes me wonder if BR had a hand in freeing Ghost, because the ravens started to caw and suddenly the door is open and Ghost is gone.

Yeah when the Ravens first appeared en masse around Sam and Gilly last year, I thought for sure we'd be getting our introduction to Coldhands. Since then we've had numerous scenes with pronounced raven sounds out in the woods, sometimes when it's implied that White Walkers around, sometimes when they aren't. Really struggling to figure out what the implied connotation is, though it'd definitely be awesome if it was Bloodraven related.

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I guess this episode cements Karl Tanner with the likes of Barristan, Arthur Dayne, Daemon Blackfyre, etc. as far as warriors go.


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I think the singer character who accompanied Cat and Tyrion to the Vale is the same character who gets his tongue ripped out in 1x10, and I thought that in the show he was named Marillion.

At any rate, unless it's going to be drastically rewritten, the Vale storyline needs some sort of character to serve as Littlefinger's patsy for Lysa's murder. I expect someone to be introduced to fulfill that purpose (hopefully no rape attempt on Sansa required).

I believe Marillion was the singer in question who was slain on the way to the Eyrie with Cat's party after joining them at the inn where Tyrion was captured (Season 1). Obviously, the books had more for Marillion to do. I do remember the singer at KL at the end of Season 1 who Joffrey gives the choice of losing his fingers or tongue after a song he wrote and performed about the royal family, but I don't think he was Marillion. I certainly could be wrong, though. My concern is, without the singer, will the show runners lay yet another murder at Sansa's feet, as they clearly have with Joffrey's (the perception, anyway).

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Burnt Rabbit.

Rabbit again, and not a very appetizing recipe, hm ? we need to stop having dinner beyond the Wall. I managed to avoid serving human flesh so far. Do you think they have good cooks in Meereen ?

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When they were stringing up Meera, Bran and Hodor were panicking and Jojen just sat there like he was holding pocket aces, I got the best feeling.

Can you blame him, he got an early preview of Longclaw going through Karl's head.

He likely had the biggest inner/mental grin.

Edited by TheNinjaDC

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Didn't mind the Jon Arryn reveal at all-- it actually seems almost comparable to Joffrey's line about the dagger, and Tyrion finally realizing it was Joff who tried to have Bran killed way back in season one. That's ancient history now, in television terms.

While Jon Arryn's killer is a big reveal in the books, it just doesn't seem all that important in the show at this point, and would actually seem pretty absurd if coupled with that intense later scene and played up like a climactic reveal. 'Hey, remember that character you liked who died in season one when he was investigating the death of a character you never actually saw? No? Well, strap in, viewer, because the answer to Sean Beane's murder investigation that you didn't really get (and actually wonder if it was in Lord of the Rings and not Game of Thrones, come to think of it), is the climactic reveal of tonight's episode!!!'

Hahaha well said.

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Some really out of character moments. It's Cersei's idea for Margery to marry Tommen now?Lysa Arryn trusts her son to not throw a fit and talk about Sansa?

It's supposed to be OOC--she's manipulating Margaery because she's trying to get in good with Mace (a judge on Tyrion's trial).

Given Robin's age, it would seem odd if he didn't show a touch more maturity. I didn't get the feel from the books he was mentally handicapped, just a lot of learned helplessness and physical ailments.

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Also, kind of awesome/scary to imagine Bran's potential once he actually learns to really use his abilities and trains under Bloodraven and the CotF. This is not a new revelation by any means, but actually seeing him effortlessly use Hodor to annihilate someone like that really rams home how powerful and how much influence he could have by the end of the series.


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Why make all the survivors at Crasters morons?

Can't light a fire in the daytime to burn a corpse in S2 cause Mance's scouts might see....Burns entire homestead at night and stands there watching in S4.

???

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Was I the only one who thought Jojen was a total badass for basically laughing in Karl's face when he told him how he was going to die? Jojen was money in this episode.

Jojen was easily one of my favorite parts of the episode, tied with Lysa and Sansa. He captures the graveness and the mysteriousness of the character well. Really excited for them to reach the cave now -- the visions of it are very beautiful.

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Finally finished tonight's ep. This was a pretty fun episode all the way through, starting with the obvious glee of more Aiden Gillen derp, which I was disappointed to see did not appear past the 20 minute mark but will undoubtedly return in "Mockingbird" .

Of all of the things that happened though, I actually did enjoy being spoiled this time around. We know now--and I think it's safe to say that this one isn't one that D&D invented, GRRM probably created it--that Jojen dies by fire. I'm pretty convinced that this will mean that Jojen is burned by Mel. We know that Mel sees Bran and BR and presumingly Jojen and Meera as servants of the Great Other and I think it's likely to conclude that if Jojen is to die by fire then he is taken/sacrifices himself and is burned by Mel.

In the books the last we know so far is that Jojen and Meera are still with Bran, BR and the gang and that he is very weak and depressed by the time they reach the cave. He wants to return to Greywater Watch but also has the greendream about it and realizes that has an unfavorable outcome. Mel has that vision where she sees Bran and co. along with BR.

Just my two cents; apologies if someone else has already thrown this out there. I had no desire to grind through all of the posts.

While it's certainly a logical conclusion to draw from what we've seen, are we imagining that the show will deviate from the books in that regard? I'm trying to figure out how or why Jojen would run into Mel unless he got up the strength to make that long a trek and for some reason sought Melisandre out.

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The problem with Lysa's cray being fully on display in this episode is that it will come as a shock to precisely no one when she tries to kill Sansa a few episodes down the road.

Her being crazy was on full display when we met her, it wasn't even much of a surprise when she completely lost it in her book arc either. This way people will have something to tie it to since we haven't seen her or Robin for a while.

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My thoughts:



-Hodor almost said a word that wasn't Hodor!!!!!!! When he de-wargs, he looks at his hands and starts saying "why?" but cuts off mid word... Yes this actually bothered me... The actual reaction to being warged and murdering a dude was well done.



-I thought it was hilarious how the show pretty blatantly just jumped in and stomped on the hopes and dreams of conspiracy theorists... Syrio is alive, is literally openly mocked by the Hound, and the "Jojen paste" theory just went up in flames. I feel like GRRM took a sadistic pleasure in both of those things happening.



-I feel like we're going to see some "token book spoiler" in every episode now. Tonight it was Jojen + Meera dieing in a fire.



-The editing for the Snow/Ghost reunion was... off putting and obvious. Also Ghost's head changes sizes abruptly for the shot where it's an actual dog.



-I was confused by Cersei's kindness to Margery.... and I was completely oblivious to basically all "cattiness" between the two (which I'm told by my girl had totally happened) #obliviousmalenotunderstandingestrogeninduceddrama



-Arya + Hound is my favorite show duo of all time. I've loved literally every scene with them both in it.



-Locke being smart enough to sneak into a camp, then dumb enough to walk directly into hanging pots/track mud footprints into the snow right to the door where the hostages are.



-Jon Snow apparently kind of sucks at fighting... He's lost literally every single fight against someone who knows what they're doing (except Halfhand, who arguably let him win). Was he this inept in the books?



-Everything at the Eeryie was brilliant. SR throwing the toy out the door, Lysa being so hilariously crazy (the Septon behind door #1 thing was hilarious to me), Peter trying to not look like he's being tortured.



-As someone earlier in the thread pointed out, Bran killing the man who maimed Jaime (who in turn maimed Bran) is an interesting touch.



-The Iron Bank being such a world super power... despite being based on an island that shouldn't even have a functional economy (nothing is grown there, and even the water has to be boiled... so they'd have to import -EVERYTHING-), let alone the assets/financial control it does, is really starting to bother me.



-One last thing, on Sansa being so kind about Tyrion. They are kind of forced into it, because of the whitewashing on Tyrion's character... You just really wouldn't be able to keep Sansa completely sympathetic on the show by having her badmouth one of the main "heroes" of the show. Show Tyrion would need to be much more ambigious/grey to really pull off any antipathy from Sansa. It's actually kind of an interesting development on it's own, because his upcoming transformation is going to be exceptionally jarring for pure show viewers. My conspiracy theory about this, is that they might be trying to set up Tyrion and Sansa actually embracing their marriage at the endgame of the series (him controlling Casterly Rock, and her potentially controlling The Vale, The Riverlands, Harrenhal, and the North)


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I was really surprised to see Locke go, i thought he'd have a bigger role to play in the series...meh it was satisfying to see Hodor be done with him



Jon + Ghost reunion made me smile



Jojen's fire vision, my theory is that we will be turned into a wight when he dies and thus set a fire


Edited by wtfsalommy

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The IB is a super world power in te books too...

And plenty of places have had a strong economy based on something other than resources. Trade, for example given that it's a port. Skills. And, in fact, clever banking

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Also didn't Jon kill like 20 people before that point, then "lost a fight" (whilst killing his opponent) against a more experienced foe in a situation greatly favouring his opponent when he was also fatigued from killing all those men? Certainly he's come better off than Jaime pre-dehanding (ironically getting a boost in the show post de-handing!)

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