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[Book Spoilers] EP405 Discussion

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For me this episode was all about Jojen Reed bein a motherfuckin badass.


Thomas Sangster really knows how to deliver a line. Also, the Jon vs Karl fight was really a treat for the eyes.


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Lysa was really putting the emphasis on Sansa having lost her virginity. She also explicitely mentioned of whether her and Petyr.....foreshadowing or just crazy lysa?

I always thought grrm made a big deal out of Sansa's virginity in the books. He makes mention of Margaery loving riding, then at some point in the books Cersei thinks on how there is no way to prove Margaery is not a virgin because she loves riding so much. On the other hand we hear about how much Sansa hates riding about a thousand times in the books. I thought it was interesting that it was pointed out so often. It made me think that something is going to come up in the future regarding Sansa's virginity.

Or maybe he just likes writing about how much people like and hate riding horses. lol.

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The IB is a super world power in te books too...

And plenty of places have had a strong economy based on something other than resources. Trade, for example given that it's a port. Skills. And, in fact, clever banking

It might have been a bit more better for GRRM to model Braavos after Medieval Venice more than Dutch-Golden-Age Amsterdam, considering how medieval the world is in general, and how Valyria was much more Roman than Hapsburg… but on the other hand, a city of refugees and religious radicals becoming a world leader by inventing modern trade and banking makes for a better story than a city of long-established natives becoming a world leader by defeating the pirates.

And other than that quibble, there is nothing too unrealistic about Braavos the IB, and I don't know why people think otherwise.

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Sooooo...


Dany has 92 ships and still won't move her ass.


The Lannisters are broke :lol: :lol:


Cersei actually wants Margaery to marry Tommen...Last time I checked she was a doe-eyed whore


Lysa is crazy bitch,ok that was expected,little Robin knows that Alayne is Sansa.


Bran and Jon didn't meet- thank the Gods


Jojen is supposed to die by burning?Or is he going to turn into a wight and then they will burn him?



edit: The sand snakes are mentioned,that's good


Edited by Anna Targaryen The Purple

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"We do not hurt little girls in Dorne" *Darkstar by Crosby, Stills & Nash plays in the background*

Anyways, loved the episode.

The change from Alayne being a daughter to a niece was nice, since Sansa looks absolutely nothing like Baelish and it ties in with his "best lies have a grain of truth" thing. Sansa would technically be his niece by marriage... surprised people didnt catch that.

The reunion with Ghost was touching, but we really aren't seeing any indications of anyone but Bran being a warg. The Night Wolf, the Kindly Man and the cat, Jon's interactions with Wildlings and other wargs, "keep your wolf close beside you"... They're all pretty important to their stories. Maybe we'll see more of that explored later though.

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I always thought grrm made a big deal out of Sansa's virginity in the books. He makes mention of Margaery loving riding, then at some point in the books Cersei thinks on how there is no way to prove Margaery is not a virgin because she loves riding so much. On the other hand we hear about how much Sansa hates riding about a thousand times in the books. I thought it was interesting that it was pointed out so often. It made me think that something is going to come up in the future regarding Sansa's virginity.

Or maybe he just likes writing about how much people like and hate riding horses. lol.

Yeah, her maidenhead will likely be a plot point...probably next book

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I really don't understand where they are going with the Hound's lessons. Because none of them actually are lessons. They are just 'asshole' moments.

In the book, Arya's whole story is finding different people that she thinks she can learn from and emulate, only to realize that she doesn't want to be them at all. The BWB, the Hound, and presumably the Kindly Man next.

The show can't do that with Arya's thoughts, but it's getting the same idea across through action. The BWB appeared to be the most noble organization in the world, but they turned Gendry over to Melisandre, and now Beric and Thoros are on her list. The Hound's code sounded like a way to be honorable without being bound to society's ridiculous rules, but then he robbed a farmer with the flimsiest of justification, and now he's on her list.

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I'm not sure how I feel about this episode.

Locke was being built up as a great fighter, but only killed 2 men, who were just wildly swinging at him. That's a shame IMO. Locke was a great character and I would have loved to see more of him.

Also, the whole Locke at the Wall and Bran and the Keep stories led to nothing at all. Locke is now dead, so are the mutineers. Nothing happened to Bran and his companions.

So basically everything is as it was before the whole thing? What's the point of Locke being there? What was the point of Bran and the mutineers.

Episode has some great scenes as well. Cersei was great this episode. Love how she's trying to get everyone's sympathy.

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In the book, Arya's whole story is finding different people that she thinks she can learn from and emulate, only to realize that she doesn't want to be them at all. The BWB, the Hound, and presumably the Kindly Man next.

The show can't do that with Arya's thoughts, but it's getting the same idea across through action. The BWB appeared to be the most noble organization in the world, but they turned Gendry over to Melisandre, and now Beric and Thoros are on her list. The Hound's code sounded like a way to be honorable without being bound to society's ridiculous rules, but then he robbed a farmer with the flimsiest of justification, and now he's on her list.

:agree: Except that the Hound was on her list ever since Mycah.

Also, they really need to burn time with Ayra before she gets on the ship. Her AFFC/ADWD material is thin. I don't mind her being paired with Sandor for that...they play well off of each other.

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But why why why are they making Cersei sympathetic seriously she is the original Ice Queen; she is suggesting Margery marry Tommen and is agreeing to still to marry Loras? and now the Lannister's gold is dry?

Why make the entire set up of Locke for him to simply die? Honestly I wanted a better death for him and the whole thing with Hodor that was something Bran guarded he didn't even want to share that with anyone :(.

I agree. It was completely out of even 'show' Cersei's character. I don't get it. I was just really sad for Hodor and the scene with Bran having to make a choice.

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The reunion with Ghost was touching, but we really aren't seeing any indications of anyone but Bran being a warg. The Night Wolf, the Kindly Man and the cat, Jon's interactions with Wildlings and other wargs, "keep your wolf close beside you"... They're all pretty important to their stories. Maybe we'll see more of that explored later though.

Did you forget Orell, who traveled with Tormund and Jon, spied on the Wall with his eagle, and warged into his eagle when he died? Or the Thenn warg, who found Tormund's party through his owl? There's been a lot of conversation about warging whenever wildlings are on screen, and if anything the show seems to imply that it's more common than in the books.

The only thing we haven't seen is the hints (and, later, direct confirmation) that the other Stark kids are also wargs. And of course we haven't seen the Kindly Man, Bloodraven, etc. at all yet, so it's no surprise that we haven't seen that they're wargs.

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How does Jorah know that Joff is dead all the way in Essos, but Sandor and Arya still dont know and theyre in the Riverlands?

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:agree: Except that the Hound was on her list ever since Mycah.

Also, they really need to burn time with Ayra before she gets on the ship. Her AFFC/ADWD material is thin. I don't mind her being paired with Sandor for that...they play well off of each other.

Didn't we hear her list without him the last time, and now he's on the list again? I'll have to go back and rewatch… I know we don't always hear the complete list.

Anyway, you're definitely right that, on top of the Arya character development, they play well off each other; their scenes are usually among the most fun in each episode.

Meanwhile, I don't think her AFFC/ADwD stuff is thin, except the early part before she gets to the House of Black and White. And they can skip over most of it—end one season with her booking passage with the coin, start the next with her being snuck into Braavos and finding the House. The only problem is that much of her story—Nymeria, Dareon and Sam, —might not fit into the TV show, so they might have to expand on the rest.

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I think all the fights look pretty bad, even the main character ones.

Maybe I haven't seen LOTR in long enough, but those battles seemed less fake (well... usually).

They had a huge budget for the equivalent of just over 1 season's footage though, and made a lot more than GoT could ever make!

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Lots of people in this thread not realising that Cersei is being a properly scheming in this episode, not being nice for the sake of it. It was obvious with Tywin, but apparently when it was being subtle - the Marg scene - some people are mistaking her acting nice to twist the judges' arms for 'whitewashing'.



Any excuse to whine about the show for some people ;)



Jojen, Lysa & Sansa were all so good in this episode. Slight shame that the Jon Arryn reveal wasn't left until Only Cat, but that scene is still destined to be epic.


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I like the fact that they brought up the sand snakes. Guess that means we'll be seeing them next season


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How does Jorah know that Joff is dead all the way in Essos, but Sandor and Arya still dont know and theyre in the Riverlands?

Because one of them is exchanging information with the Lannisters and the others aren't. Maybe.

Book Cersei > Show Cersei but show Cersei will only last so long. After the trial, Tywin etc, she's El Loco again imo.

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They had a huge budget for the equivalent of just over 1 season's footage though, and made a lot more than GoT could ever make!

I mean more the sword work from the actors rather than the scale of the battles. I usually feel like I'm watching people who are obviously fighting to a script, and would rather the show runners cut down on fight scenes then make up new ones and devote episodes to them, but I seem to be very alone in that, heh.

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Barristan The Smug

This. Apart from the odd one liner all barristan has done this season is stand next to dany with that weird smug grin on his face, the director must have told him "you're with the queen now, so just act really happy m'kay?" lol

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I mean more the sword work from the actors rather than the scale of the battles. I usually feel like I'm watching people who are obviously fighting to a script, and would rather the show runners cut down on fight scenes then make up new ones and devote episodes to them, but I seem to be very alone in that, heh.

The fight scenes (the few that havent been cut) have gone way down hill this season, ive always been a big fan of the show but i'm starting to think they are all resting on their laurels a bit now, probably thinking about all the hollywood films they will be in when they get killed off.

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