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[Book Spoilers] EP405 Discussion

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I found that Margaery-and-Cersei scene pretty weird. "I don't even know what to call you, sister or mother"??? Has she already forgotten that little talk between her and Cersei at Tyrion's wedding, where Cersei told Margaery that she would have her strangled in her sleep if she called her "sister" again?



It didn't seem like taunting or a challenge on Margaery's part at all (and it wouldn't have been like her character either). I think the writers had totally forgotten that previous scene and messed up here.


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There was a whole thing where the High Septon wouldn't give his blessing until he met with Cersei about the crowns debt and the plight of the church. He was crowned by someone else, offscreen.

So... This is also made up by D&D.

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I don't recall Tommen being coronated by the High Septon in the books?

Good point, this change could actually be a bit problematic. I assume they'll work a way to get te faith militant in though

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I agree. Her whole character in the show is ranging from mom of the year to evil schemer to victim to victim, to super victim, to still a semi-evil schemer, to victim schemer to...woman who enjoys wine and one facial expression.

My issue is that Cersei never once in her head ever disparaged of Joffrey, the closest she came was saying he was "a bit wild and strong willed." Those were her actual feelings coming from her mind, she thought he was great...not as great as her, but who can be right? She's now shit talked Joffrey and called him a monster to 1. Tyrion (WTF?), 2. Tywin (WTF?), 3. Jaime (He tells her he was a problem), 4. Marge (WTGFHSGKHFJS?), 5. Sansa (One of the closest she came to saying he was a problem, but was telling her to suck it up and be a better betrothed to him). I honestly didn't mind her scenes with Oberyn and Tywin, they were well done, was hoping they would have one with Mace too, but with Marge, it was stupid...also they're bankrupt...great, now she will have a reason not to pay back the bank other than being overzealous in her own ideas of her greatness and power.

this seems to be common feeling...Cersie's attempts to sway the judges to her favor was appreciated with Tywin and Oberyn but made no sense with Margery. from a book perspective, i completely agree.

from a show perspective, they have showed Mace Tyrell what 3 scenes so far? always showed him as being extremely insignificant and sort of clownish...remembering the scene where Olenna and Tywin were walking during the Purple wedding and she sort of shoo's him away like "oh the grown ups are talking, get back in your corner" Character has no depth or personality...first of all, showing that Cersei is manipulating him by giving him what he wants would not make sense since we have no idea what he wants...if she had tried with Olenna, probably would have had her ass handed to her like last time...and margery is the only other Tyrell who's had the most screen time...

while watching it, i wasn't happy either....but what i did enjoy at the end of it all was that,

- Margery was still suspicious and most likely not swayed by her sudden attempts to bond

- Tywin was likely not swayed because he's smarter than that (that is what I'm hoping for at least)

- Oberyn seemed surprised but possibly swayed as well

now Cersei being Cersei thinks she's the smartest of them all and that all her scheming is going to pay off wonderfully. we obviously know what Oberyn is going to do :drool: ....I see this as a build up for next season as the beginning of her blundering attempts at scheming and topping everyone...I always loved that part the most in the books about how she always comes up with these "amazing" schemes and how it usually backfires and leaves her fuked!

so by avoiding my discomfort at the specifics, i'm still pretty excited about where this is heading!

Also, I was super happy at Oberyn mentioning his 8 daughters, just wish they slipped "Sand Snakes" in to that somehow but there's still possibility for that next 3 eps ;)

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Good point, this change could actually be a bit problematic. I assume they'll work a way to get te faith militant in though

They can probably just have that High Septon do something to anger Cersei so she has him killed and then invent a kind of tradition that every new High Septon needs to acknowledge the king and he doesn't causing the tension and such.

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I found that Margaery-and-Cersei scene pretty weird. "I don't even know what to call you, sister or mother"??? Has she already forgotten that little talk between her and Cersei at Tyrion's wedding, where Cersei told Margaery that she would have her strangled in her sleep if she called her "sister" again?

It didn't seem like taunting or a challenge on Margaery's part at all (and it wouldn't have been like her character either). I think the writers had totally forgotten that previous scene and messed up here.

It's clearly Marg trying to push Cersei's buttons. She doubts her sincerity so is pushing her by bringing back that past exchange and then implying she is old. Stealth insults, but both Marge and Cersei knows what's going on and Marge was literally told by Olenna last episode that the Lannisters need them

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I found that Margaery-and-Cersei scene pretty weird. "I don't even know what to call you, sister or mother"??? Has she already forgotten that little talk between her and Cersei at Tyrion's wedding, where Cersei told Margaery that she would have her strangled in her sleep if she called her "sister" again?

It didn't seem like taunting or a challenge on Margaery's part at all (and it wouldn't have been like her character either). I think the writers had totally forgotten that previous scene and messed up here.

i actually thought the opposite :laugh:

i felt Margery was extremely suspicious of Cersei's sudden attempts at bonding...so to test her new resolve, she throws the sister comment back at her face to see if Cersei is genuine or faking it...if you notice, Margery seemed to be trying to read Cersei's face when she said that..

going by Cersei's pulling a stannis (jaw-clench) and margery's smile at the end, im guessing margery figured it out that she was being played...but will watch that scene again tonight to check!

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It's clearly Marg trying to push Cersei's buttons. She doubts her sincerity so is pushing her by bringing back that past exchange and then implying she is old. Stealth insults, but both Marge and Cersei knows what's going on and Marge was literally told by Olenna last episode that the Lannisters need them

^^ you beat me to it! :bowdown:

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Oh hey, did anyone bring up that "handsome, arrogant, cruel Uncle Brandon" line yet? I know Lysa is nuts, but interesting insight into how some viewed him at least.







i actually thought the opposite :laugh:



i felt Margery was extremely suspicious of Cersei's sudden attempts at bonding...so to test her new resolve, she throws the sister comment back at her face to see if Cersei is genuine or faking it...if you notice, Margery seemed to be trying to read Cersei's face when she said that..



going by Cersei's pulling a stannis (jaw-clench) and margery's smile at the end, im guessing margery figured it out that she was being played...but will watch that scene again tonight to check!





This exactly. Especially given: http://rockpaperwatch.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/cersei-margaery-strangle.gif


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Did anyone else catch that Jon was nearly bested by the weapon-in-both-hands-no-shield technique he was schooling the new recruits on in last week's episode? Or that Karl had likely been storing that loogie since the mutiny in case he had to face off against any highborns?

Edited by Traitor's Crastard

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Oh hey, did anyone bring up that "handsome, arrogant, cruel Uncle Brandon" line yet? I know Lysa is nuts, but interesting insight into how some viewed him at least.

Handsome and arrogant, we've heard. Cruel only because he beat up poor wittle wittlefinga.

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Handsome and arrogant, we've heard. Cruel only because he beat up poor wittle wittlefinga.

True. Also I suppose Lady Dustin didn't paint him in the best light.

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I really enjoyed this episode. Not sure yet if it is my fave of the season so far but pretty close. Took me to the end of the episode to realise that Tyrion didn't even appear.

Loved:

Margarey and Cersei chat - Lena Headey is second best actress this year after Maisie.

Twyin and Cersei chat

Tommen is hooked on Margaery. So cute.

Brienne and Pod - heh. Loved that she couldn't get the armour undone.

Jojen - I think this is the first time I've actually liked him.

Jon Snow - gets better every episode. With that sword through the mouth, I think he's going to enjoy assassin Arya.

Hodor - damn. Felt for him when he was looking at the blood on his hand.

Arya - always the best. Congrats Maisie on that fantastic waterdance. It looked great. Don't worry about the Hound. He wouldn't even be fit to stand anywhere near Syrio.

Not sure on:

Arya's list - you know you are my fave but putting my Beric on there. We have to have words.

Bran - I'm really surprised he had no reaction to them threatening Meera. It felt like Isaac fell asleep there.

Hated:

The Hound - you are a gigantic, gigantic ass. She was just dancing around, practising with her sword. And you couldn't give her a moment to enjoy herself. And hitting a little girl to the ground is never cool.

I really don't understand where they are going with the Hound's lessons. Because none of them actually are lessons. They are just 'asshole' moments. The whole 'lesson' in the third episode didn't mean anything because its not the small folk that are beheading the Starks. It's the nobles and Arya doesn't trust them as far as she can throw them.

The 'lesson' tonight was also pointless. Making fun of people you don't know and basically enjoying the fact that a little girl has lost everyone important in her life is only a lesson that the Hound is a gigantic ass. And I'm pretty sure that Arya already knows that one.

Arya also has not indicated in anyway how she plans on killing those on her list. She held back with Polliver's gang until she could take someone on. And also, Ass, she survived way before you came along.

Seeing as they are going differently in the books, I want Arya to spend the rest of this season slowly poisoning the Hound. Now, that would be awesome.

Arya want to be fullu involved in the buisness of vengence and killing. She needs to learn what she can and can't do (kinda like her fans) and there is no way she can kill battle harden men in combat. The slap was a wake up call, she won't get another one

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The true light.

Oh agreed. Brandon seems like a giant bro to me. My point was I'm not sure anyone used "cruel" to describe him before, but Lysa is batshit and others didn't exactly think highly of him.

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Good point, this change could actually be a bit problematic. I assume they'll work a way to get te faith militant in though







Actually they're still on the second High Septon, the one who Tyrion appointed in the books after the first one got eaten, not the one who imprisons Cersei. All the have to do is have Cersei get all paranoid and have the High Septon smothered, just like in the books. Then the next on can be the High Sparrow.



Edit: Tyion didn't actually appoint him, I misspoke as they are (at least officially) elected from within their order. Still Cersei considers him "of Tyrion's making" for whatever reason.


Edited by RumHam

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Actually they're still on the second High Septon, the one who Tyrion appointed in the books after the first one got eaten, not the one who imprisons Cersei. All the have to do is have Cersei get all paranoid and have the High Septon smothered, just like in the books. Then the next on can be the High Sparrow.

Agreed, and I think it would work well. They're definitely setting it up. They've been really, really upping the mentions of the Seven recently.

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When we look at possible new characters for season 5, it's insane:

3x Martells, maybe Arys, maybe Areo, some sand snakes, maybe Darkstar plus back up cast in Doene and Myrcella back, maybe 3x Greyjoy bros plus stooges, maybe new cast at KL like Rosby etc plus Kevin back, Manderly and maybe other Northerners, maybe Marsh, Quentyn's companions, sellswords, Volantis minor cast, Oldtown minor cast, Moqorro, Riverlands minor cast, House of black and white and Braavos cast...

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