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[Book Spoilers] EP405 Discussion

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Agreed, and I think it would work well. They're definitely setting it up. They've been really, really upping the mentions of the Seven recently.

Rewatching Tommen's scene in Ep. 4 I'm starting to wonder if his piety is going to be A Thing in the show. Since he's older his naivete can't merely be a function of being too young to understand what's going on, but between "Holiness" being his first answer to Tywin, and his initial answer to Margaery's question of 'do you know what [us being married] means?' isn't anything sexual but an eager reply of "saying our vows in front of the high septon, and..."

I'm thinking it's possible show Tommen will up being genuinely pious, almost a Baelor-The-Blessed-Lite, to the point that he's unworldly/naive because he's so focused on the divine. He'd be a good candidate for infodumping on the faith, and maybe even pressing the issue of a new High Septon (after Cersei kills this one) or rearming the faith to absolve the debt/give us a bigger army to deal with impending foreign threats might even be partially his idea [or at least, he'll think it's his idea, anyway. He'll really like the idea.]

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im guessing lysa would despise sansa even more if he said she was his bastard, thus further supporting some speculation that she thinks sansa is actually pety's bastard with catelyn. considering how little d&d regards the intelligence of show viers with their conspicous writing, saying she was his daughter may create some conflict and confusion

I think Lysa's distaste for Sansa is already at 100% regardless of the story Petyr put together.

Harsh on the Hound. Arya told him she wanted to kill him, then tried to do it. She's lucky to still be alive

Not really...Sandor knows a whole lot more about armor than Arya does, he knew pretty well she doesn't have the strength to shove that sword through his armor. If he had been wearing chain, maybe different conversation.

It wasn't toned down enough.

It's interesting seeing the discourse over the years of "too much sex v. too much violence". This is one of the few times that they have really pushed the edge or gone over with overt violence.

Watch the episode again. She was pretending to be nice, so that they will sentence Tyrion to death. That is not very saint-like. Do don't worry. She is still a psycho!

With that said. I think what they did in the show was brilliant. Cercei thinks she is outsmarting the judges. But in reality, no once buys it! Hence ... Cercei is not that smart!

Yeah, I'm not seeing how anyone is calling what Cersei was doing "subtle". Either from the viewership perspective or the people she was talking to - Marg, to what I saw, sees right through it and throws the "sister" line back at her because she knows Cersei is trying to be buddy buddy.

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I'm not sure how I feel about this episode.

Locke was being built up as a great fighter, but only killed 2 men, who were just wildly swinging at him. That's a shame IMO. Locke was a great character and I would have loved to see more of him.

Also, the whole Locke at the Wall and Bran and the Keep stories led to nothing at all. Locke is now dead, so are the mutineers. Nothing happened to Bran and his companions.

So basically everything is as it was before the whole thing? What's the point of Locke being there? What was the point of Bran and the mutineers.

Episode has some great scenes as well. Cersei was great this episode. Love how she's trying to get everyone's sympathy.

I don't think it's that simple. I mean while it's true Bran and Co. Are in the same place geographicly as before they were taken hostage their not in the same emotional place at all. The whole scene was done for character's development.

In the previous seasons We've never seen Bran and Jojen stood up for themselves and the ones they love.

Osha basically called Jojen a wuss because he was always getting protected by his sister and he never hunted nor did he do any chores, his sister always did everything for him.

Bran untile now has always submitted to everything that has hapened to him whithout much of a fight ( loosing his legs, Winterfell getting taken by Theon, The maester dieing, going north and I'm sure I'm missing some) Bran is a character that isn't driven by what he wants but by what he has to do ( half of his lines in season 3 start with "I have to" ) He's pretty submissive.

At the keep, for the first time, it was Bran and Jojen that saved the day, by manning up! They've also discovered a very darker side of themselves. Seriously how creepy/badass was Jojen? And Bran just did one of the most morally ambiguous thing that has ever been done in the show, he killed a man while using an other and ripping him of his personal choice. The horror in Hodors eyes and his inability to immediately follow Bran's order is a good translation of how wrong his action just was and yet there is no question that he did it for the greater good.

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mierra asked him how do they know when it will end and he saw fire in his hand. Probably meaning it will end in fire.

I thought that instantly.

It has nothing to do with R'hollor (unless he's burned by Melisandre - but I can't see that at all), being a Targaryen etc. imo, obvs.

Edited by Stobb Rark

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When we look at possible new characters for season 5, it's insane:

3x Martells, maybe Arys, maybe Areo, some sand snakes, maybe Darkstar plus back up cast in Doene and Myrcella back, maybe 3x Greyjoy bros plus stooges, maybe new cast at KL like Rosby etc plus Kevin back, Manderly and maybe other Northerners, maybe Marsh, Quentyn's companions, sellswords, Volantis minor cast, Oldtown minor cast, Moqorro, Riverlands minor cast, House of black and white and Braavos cast...

Aegon and Jon Connington.

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Agreed, and I think it would work well. They're definitely setting it up. They've been really, really upping the mentions of the Seven recently.

I think D&D decided to take it in steps...i've always felt that they have been seriously under-playing the religions in the show (till R'hllor obviously)..i mean i can barely recall a single thing about the High Septon till the Red wedding...even during Ned's beheading, they used Pycelle instead...with all the religions in the ASoIaF, its possible D&D were worried show might be misunderstood as religious show...

s 1 - some witchcraft and dragons (step 1 to accepting the supernatural)

s 2 - melisandre and R'hollor which high focus on Mel rather than Red god, plus ending sort of proved false (Blackwater)...did you notice how they skated over House of Undying and Qauithe scenes?

s 3 - demon baby which could possibly be witchcraft (which ppl already accept from s1) and Jaqen Hagar (but high focus on him rather Him of Many faces)

s4 - serious R'hollor (Mel burning leeches) and Heart trees (though focus on Brans power more than power of Gods of the North)

they trying to ease people in to believing the religions (almost nothing about the "silent sisters" so far)...its seems to be a gradual set up, im liking it to be honest...when i think of it from Unsullied POV, its really a lot to take in, its probably smart not to add the religious aspect in to it as well...plus they dont want to lose that demographic who would not watch religiously geared shows

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This has probably been mentioned, but it's 43 pages so forgive me.



They just gave Biters death to Karl, right? with the really long "tongue" coming out of his mouth? Where is Gendry anyway we haven't seen him this season right?


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Ah yeah. And presumably someone as teh face of the GC. And Illyrio back after 3 seasons!

speaking of that...do you think they will bring back Xaro Xohan Doxos (horrible spelling)? How do u think they will handle that part since they've already changed that story line so drastically?

Perhaps a different thread to discuss this?

Edited by trgryn-strk-lnstr-mrtell

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- Meera's almost-rape: "Wait, there's a female character we haven't sexualized or threatened with rape? I guess we'd better fix that."

Almost-rape is now outrage worthy? Holster your rape whistle please before you hurt yourself.

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Almost-rape is now outrage worthy? Holster your rape whistle please before you hurt yourself.

agreed...what was it Cersei said..."they hurt little girls everywhere"...i believe it was followed by or preceeding Arya/Hound scene so people would start on Hounds slapping Arya as GOT promoting child abuse...

not trying to be offensive or rude, but honestly peopel, if stuff like this affects you, should perhaps avoid HBO...i have friends who cannot stand the sight of blood, i doubt they will ever watch True Blood, GOT etc...if they do, knowing full well what they could possibly see, they kind of dont have the right to complain about throwing up or passing out or being traumatized after watching a scene...

what would you say to a person who climbs off a roller-coaster and says "that was waaay too scary! people shouldn't design rides like these!"

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Being nice to manipulate Marg is one thing, but Cersei played her trump card (marriage to Tommen) with Marg too quickly. Talking marriage would have made more sense after she learned that the mines were no longer producing gold.

In any case, I would have had her be "nice and sympathetic" to Marg but hint the marriage part to Mace. After all, he's the judge, and she would want to be sure he got the message.

Also, talking to Marg about the marriage at all is very uncharacteristic because we know Cersei didn't like Marg's influence over Joff (e.g., the disposition of the leftovers) and didn't seem to acknowledge the value of what Marg taught him. Discussing the topic with her suggests that she believes Marg to be her peer (or close to it) which Cersei would never admit. Maybe Show Cersei is more pragmatic than Book Cersei in accepting the value of Marg, but then they shouldn't have made her order Pycelle to serve the leftover food to the dogs in Episode 2.

I agree, I am also since reading a lot of different viewer's comments here that Cersei wasn't being "nice" for nicety sake; etc. But I will still stick by my own view that Pragmatism, Cunning, and Forethought were never her strong suits EVER. She has always let her emotions rule her judgement and to see this play out is strange not fitting with her character not only in the Books but here on the show as well as you just pointed out.

I will say this Lena Headey is doing a really wonderful job in adding so much complexity to Cersei as she really is much more one-dimensional in the books, I am interested to when we get to the point of her meltdown.

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Overall solid episode. Jon and NW part was badass. Happy I wasn't on the 'Locke is gonna be Bowen Marsh or something' bandwagon.

I'm happy that Bran booked it before talking to Jon. Jojen was right that Jon would impede on their journey.

Weird thinking that Jon and Bran haven't spoke to each other since the pilot.

The next episode looks like it has potential to be the best this season.

So glad the show didn't turn him into Bowen! That was a bright spot in that death scene, which really bothered me because of Hodor's reaction when Bran "releases" him.

Yeah it reminds me of how it's described in the books where Hodor "curls up and hides" in a corner of his brain when Bran enters

Exactly. It's like violating the trust of a special needs person, and it really makes me uncomfortable with this aspect of Bran's warging.

but there was a fight scene where bran warged hodor in order to be able to fight. and the show hasn't shown that hodor feels violated by it so i suppose it's not so bad. tbh, i don't know how they would show that since he can only say hodor and we aren't in his mind.

Really? I thought Hodor looked at least bewildered by what Bran had made him do, if not completely upset by it. The look on his face when he saw the blood on his hands broke my heart.

Previews for next week showed Tywin & Company talking about Dany setting up shop as queen. Ser Jorah is still sending reports back to Kings Landing, I take it? Dany will find out around episode 9 or so, and that's when she'll banish him...

If he is, then he's a fucking idiot, because he promised Quaithe that he wouldn't betray Dany ever again. I hope we'll see Dany's vision of Quaithe in Meereen! You just know that she's a badass Shadowbinder from Asshai!

Jon Arryn reveal was underwhelming poorly placed it will make the only cat scene worse.

Agreed.

It was also a prosthetic breast, which probably helped.

I seem to recall Rory McCann telling a convention that Kate Dickie was walking around on set showing off her prosthetic to everyone, and that she seemed to really enjoy wearing it. :D Such a fine actress. She does batshit insane so bloody well!

<snip>

And mentioned already in passing, but how about the loafer of the Direwolves, GHOST, finally putting in some work? Welcome back, whitey. As soon as Edd's mutineer head count came up short, and Rast was named as the short head, you just knew what was coming. No kill-stealing here, Ghost finally got to add a deserved notch to his score-sheet.

Screw Dany, HODOR~! is the true Breaker of Chains. Did not expect Locke to go down this quickly, but it's a good time and a good way to write him out. Dummy made his move on Starksassination too quickly (where's Rickon?) and paid the price. Also liked Hodor staring accusingly (and fearfully) at his hands, reminding us that Regulatin' on Locke is very much not his nature, and laying the groundwork for how This Is Not Okay, even though it was for the greater good this week, Bran is going down an unpleasant path by Warging Into Hodor.

<snip>

It was very, very good to see Ghost in action (take that, you fucking asshat, Rast!), but I would like to know just how injured Summer is! I can see GRRM also making Bran a darker character in the books, so if this is foreshadowing (since we already know he wargs Hodor in the CotF's cave in order to creep on Meera...) based on what D&D know about GRRM's "broad strokes" for ASoIaF, the okay. If not.... then I don't to see any more violation of sweet Hodor's mind!

<snip>

A Hodor Knows: As super-cool as it was to watch Hodor snap an asshole’s neck at the shoulder (fuck … me ), the scene were Hodor sees blood on his hands spoke volumes. Bran took the free-will of another human being and used it for his own ends; he used Hodor as a means to an ends at the expense of Hodor’s free-will and humanity. IT odes not matter how good of an act it was, when Hodor looks down and sees a dead man and blood on his own hands…

… all I know is Tywin Lannister would have been proud. And the Stark apologists can’t tell me it’s not all the same thing.

<snip>

I can see Bran continuing to a very dark place, which may be exciting... what if Bran is Jon's NissaNissa?

i don't know if Bran can always warg into Hodor. We know from the books that he only did it once (at this point) and it was in absolute desperation to get Hodor to stop screaming, I don't think it's something that comes to Bran's mind as one of his abilities.

Not so. He actually wargs Hodor without Jojen or Meera's knowledge in ADWD, in order to be close to Meera.

Really... You didn't read into her sauve manipulation of her three victims. Mama Lion's was hugging her victims while sharpening her Axe for the ImpS head.

<snip>

To be fair my one line comment regarding Cersei's treatment of Margaery was made at the outset of the scene (as in, while watching the show), not at its fruition... It jarred with her previous treatment of Margaery. I expected her to much more forcefully cock-block in that scene.

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People need to relax and calm down with the whole "CERSEI IS SO DIFFERENT WHY IS SHE DIFFERENT AND NICE???". Breathe.



First and foremost, Cersei doesn't have a POV chapter until AFfC. In ASoS it is only like 200 pages or so of time between Joff and Tywin's deaths IIRC but for dramatic effect D&D altered the timeline and made the Red Wedding happen last season and now are backtracking through material hundreds of pages earlier this season. Which makes total sense as there would be no way the could accomplish the Red Wedding and its leadup, the battle at CB/for the wall and all the rest of the major deaths and other big subplots in one season.



It's not until after Tywin's death that Cersei becomes ridiculously unstable; we have to remember that the timeline is altered and many of the Jaime scenes we've seen from her this season DID NOT EXIST in the books. There is no doubt in my mind that Cersei will begin her ridiculously unstable, no longer nice routine once Tywin is killed and Jaime leaves again. How could she not? Let's break down how end-of-season Cersei will be.



-Her dwarf brother that she tried to have executed for murdering her son somehow escaped the capital and is gone to parts unknown after murdering her father.


-Her father, head of the family and in her own words "the most powerful man alive" is no longer alive. She has to start doing shit on her own.


-Her remaining brother and former lover leaves her once again to take command in the Riverlands.


-Sansa Stark is still missing. Her grip on power is loosening by the day and, without her father around, she begins to see the Tyrells as more and more of a looming threat.



Now, in the context of the show we know that Stannis, Davos and co. will make the decision to sail to the Wall next episode (read the ep. 6 description). It's pretty likely that we don't see much more of KL at all this season aside from the trial, which we know will be held next episode and in episode 8 when Gregor and Oberyn fight. TBH I don't see how Cersei will come into play in Ep. 9 (which, correct me if I'm wrong, will only be set at the wall?) or Ep. 10, where the only time we spend in KL should be in a dungeon and a privy.



Given all that, I'd fully expect Cersei to start making her irrational decisions as her newfound power floods to her head at the beginning of next season. With her father removed, she is of course under no obligation to marry Loras anymore and he offers to take the white. Cersei sending him to take Dragonstone-- which will probably be revealed as vacant in S5 Ep. 1 or 2 as the realm learns Stannis is at the Wall--could easily be used as the start of the Cersei-Margery fued, which is easily fueled over competing for Tommen's affection and love.



So in summation, frackin relax with Cersei's even-temperament and total not completely-bitchiness for the moment as it's VERY likely the only times we see her for the rest of the season are in the Tyrion trial scenes. Next year I fully expect we will get book Cersei for good.


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But why why why are they making Cersei sympathetic seriously she is the original Ice Queen; she is suggesting Margery marry Tommen and is agreeing to still to marry Loras? and now the Lannister's gold is dry?~~

it's just an act... don't worry, she's gonna let her true colors out soon (tho maybe not till the hand-killer "escapes")

Why make the entire set up of Locke for him to simply die? Honestly I wanted a better death for him and the whole thing with Hodor that was something Bran guarded he didn't even want to share that with anyone :(.

i think he shared it with jojen... they shared a secretive glance

~~I loved Ghost killing Rast, Hodor/Bran..~~

did they burn rast? i don't recall seeing that... ruh roh could be a pudgy WW on the way

Edited by basilisk312

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Did anyone notice the Meereen navy had 93 ships? IIRC that's the count of Victarion's initial fleet. Definitely an intriguing add-in. G-d only knows where that's going.

Arya added people who sold one of her best friends to a crazy stranger.

My favorite part was going back and reading Locke theories.

My guess is that Victarion and the Iron Fleet coming to Dany is going to be cut from the show.

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it's just an act... don't worry, she's gonna let her true colors out soon (tho maybe not till the hand-killer "escapes")

I did make a post just above regarding a lot of this already :) .

People need to relax and calm down with the whole "CERSEI IS SO DIFFERENT WHY IS SHE DIFFERENT AND NICE???". Breathe.

First and foremost, Cersei doesn't have a POV chapter until AFfC. In ASoS it is only like 200 pages or so of time between Joff and Tywin's deaths IIRC but for dramatic effect D&D altered the timeline and made the Red Wedding happen last season and now are backtracking through material hundreds of pages earlier this season. Which makes total sense as there would be no way the could accomplish the Red Wedding and its leadup, the battle at CB/for the wall and all the rest of the major deaths and other big subplots in one season.

It's not until after Tywin's death that Cersei becomes ridiculously unstable; we have to remember that the timeline is altered and many of the Jaime scenes we've seen from her this season DID NOT EXIST in the books. There is no doubt in my mind that Cersei will begin her ridiculously unstable, no longer nice routine once Tywin is killed and Jaime leaves again. How could she not? Let's break down how end-of-season Cersei will be.

-Her dwarf brother that she tried to have executed for murdering her son somehow escaped the capital and is gone to parts unknown after murdering her father.

-Her father, head of the family and in her own words "the most powerful man alive" is no longer alive. She has to start doing shit on her own.

-Her remaining brother and former lover leaves her once again to take command in the Riverlands.

-Sansa Stark is still missing. Her grip on power is loosening by the day and, without her father around, she begins to see the Tyrells as more and more of a looming threat.

Now, in the context of the show we know that Stannis, Davos and co. will make the decision to sail to the Wall next episode (read the ep. 6 description). It's pretty likely that we don't see much more of KL at all this season aside from the trial, which we know will be held next episode and in episode 8 when Gregor and Oberyn fight. TBH I don't see how Cersei will come into play in Ep. 9 (which, correct me if I'm wrong, will only be set at the wall?) or Ep. 10, where the only time we spend in KL should be in a dungeon and a privy.

Given all that, I'd fully expect Cersei to start making her irrational decisions as her newfound power floods to her head at the beginning of next season. With her father removed, she is of course under no obligation to marry Loras anymore and he offers to take the white. Cersei sending him to take Dragonstone-- which will probably be revealed as vacant in S5 Ep. 1 or 2 as the realm learns Stannis is at the Wall--could easily be used as the start of the Cersei-Margery fued, which is easily fueled over competing for Tommen's affection and love.

So in summation, frackin relax with Cersei's even-temperament and total not completely-bitchiness for the moment as it's VERY likely the only times we see her for the rest of the season are in the Tyrion trial scenes. Next year I fully expect we will get book Cersei for good.

I agree finally to an extent I still don't like :P sorry :). I love your detailed analysis instead of saying everyone is wrong ;)

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Also didn't Jon kill like 20 people before that point, then "lost a fight" (whilst killing his opponent) against a more experienced foe in a situation greatly favouring his opponent when he was also fatigued from killing all those men? Certainly he's come better off than Jaime pre-dehanding (ironically getting a boost in the show post de-handing!)

I refuse to believe Jon is a shitty fighter, especially with a valaryian blade, so I'm going to go with this explanation. I suppose Oberyn did mention "longswords could be a poor choice in closed quarters."

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