Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Ran

[Book Spoilers] EP405 Discussion

Recommended Posts

Cersei scheming to get Mace on her side in this way doesn't make much sense. Cersei was worried about Marg with Joff who is much stronger a character than Tommen. So she is willing to make one of her chief rivals queen just to make sure Tyrion is killed? If Tyrion was found innocent would it even be that difficult for Cersei to have Tyrion killed? She is making so many moves to make sure Tyrion is found guilty anyway. Marg and the Tyrells are a much bigger threat to Cersei than Tyrion. So basically the whole scheming is give Marg Tyrell the highest position possible to try and gain favor with one of the three judges? This is the poorest 'scheming' possible. Cersei talks of power plenty yet she is willing to give control of the kingdom to the Tyrells just so she doesn't have to deal with killing a dwarf? Of which she is working many angles on making sure the trial is a landslide against him anyway. You don't think this is a very poorly lopsided trade off? I'll make you queen if you can help me get one third of the judges against my brother.

There's nothing Cersei can do to stop Marg from marrying Tommen (We already knew it would happen from last episode), so I saw it as her pretending to offer something that was already theirs and pretend to be nice to win favor. Of course once she no longer needs Mace's vote I don't expect Cersei to keep up the act, which you can tell by the look of her needing to throw up every time Marg said something.

Edited by DarkAndFullOfTurnips

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So, i think i never as much laughed watching an episode of GoT. Crasy Lysa is epic. I'm so happy that they kept the same actor for Sweet Robin !



Sorry, I have to mention this:


When I saw Carl-the-rapist-who-likes-knives-and-curly-hair-just-like-his-mommy bowed before Jon Snow, I laughed thinking "even asreholes bows before Lord Snow"(and "maybe, he likes his hair too"). But then, someone here complained because the Lords didn't kneel before Tommen, they just bowed. Plus, the revelation in this episode that "snow falling in a vision = Jon Snow".The Show seems to insist on "the snow falling on the iron throne vision" Well, that got me thinking. The title of this episode is "First of His Name", right ? But, we saw Tommen like what ? 2 minutes ? The coronation of Tommen wasn't the important thing in this episode. Are D&D trying to pass a message ?


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I will write all first impressions of the episode together as I am watching it after everyone else:


  • Coronation: how well did it feel to see Cersei almost begging Margaery to wed Tommen?? I think the look when she says "mother" is priceless...
  • Daenerys' council: Did anyone else see how quickly Grey Worm exited the room? It didn't take him more than 3 seconds... Shows how important obedience is to an unsullied! Well done about the two possibilities: staying in SB or going to Westeros and how the opinions of Mormont and Barristan differ. Also I imagine people who haven't read the books will be very very very pissed about Daenerys not going to Westeros.. At least I was when I read it.
  • Sansa and Littlefinger: it appears no Fingers. Good back up of the Vale never being conquered and all that! ALAYNE! Doesn't Robert (Robin) look a bit like the Weasley Twins? Or was it my imagination? WOWOWOWOWOWOW wait a second..... Did Lysa kill Jon Arryn in the books?? I don't remember that! She certainly did fulfill her promise of screaming didn't she?
  • Arya and the Hound: the Red Woman, Beric Dondarrion, Thoros of Myr? Arya is more in love with Gendry than I thought. Great dialogue by the way. Every piece of it.
  • Sansa and Lysa: One moment she is your kind aunt Lysa the next she goes crazy bitch and gets the crap out of you and then again kind aunt Lysa consoling you... Really, she has a serious mental illness that one.
  • Pod and Brienne: how can you ride worse than Pod?? Is it even possible? Loved when he just crossed in front of Brienne.. Her face was like: please release me from this idiot!
  • Arya and the Hound: yet another great dialogue between this two, well nothing out of the normal, theirs always are! Anyway that one hand flip or whatever she did was niceeee!
  • Oberyn and Cersei: sorry Cersei don't think Oberyn will be able to give Myrcella your gifts... :( Anyway well tried... hahahaha
  • Craster's: Jojen's hand burning: does that mean that they will become white walkers and so the will be killed by fire? Or something like that? More foreshadowing about tWoW or not? Well played Locke, well played! Jojen telling Carl he was going to die was so gooood! Almost jumped of joy with "buried by snow". Really did not think Hodor would kill Locke that was a surprise... But anyway: GO ON HODOOOR! Really tough decision Bran had to do... I really like how they are picturing him as a leader. Reaaally HBO?? Through the mouth? Didn't you come up with the idea of something more gruesome? Well that definitely was a Ghost... I jumped when he killed Rast: for real!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just checked and he wasn't.

It was heavily implied a few episodes back when Davos mentioned the Iron Bank and got that lightbulb over his head facial expression.

Yes of courseand in the books a Braavosi banker does arrive to possibly fund Stannis. That hardly means Stannis himself needs to go even if he initiates the transaction. He has people. Davos would be far more likely in the show to make the trip. He was gone for the Stannis action shortly after arriving at the Wall. So his eastern tour might make a stop at, or be limited to, Braavos. Stannis is going to have a hard time fighting wildlings, rallying the North, and marching on Winterfell without actually being there. So far easier to bring the banker to him or send someone like Davos.

But would it be tidier to have the Iron Bank come to Westeros as one representative to be turned aside by KL and then go to Stannis?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

WOWOWOWOWOWOW wait a second..... Did Lysa kill Jon Arryn in the books??

Yes - and sent the lying letter to Cat

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes of courseand in the books a Braavosi banker does arrive to possibly fund Stannis. That hardly means Stannis himself needs to go even if he initiates the transaction. He has people. Davos would be far more likely in the show to make the trip. He was gone for the Stannis action shortly after arriving at the Wall. So his eastern tour might make a stop at, or be limited to, Braavos. Stannis is going to have a hard time fighting wildlings, rallying the North, and marching on Winterfell without actually being there. So far easier to bring the banker to him or send someone like Davos.

But would it be tidier to have the Iron Bank come to Westeros as one representative to be turned aside by KL and then go to Stannis?

Yeah probably, but as I mentioned before he was (or really should be, though he showed know sign of it last time we saw him) heading north by ship anyway, so stopping at Braavos makes some sense. Especially if the producers want to establish the city in viewers minds for when Arya heads that way later.

On another topic, Lysa mentioned that she allowed Pyter to return to Kings Landing to get Sansa. I guess that explains why they filmed things at the Vale last season, but does it actually make any sense? He must have sailed to the Vale only to immediately go back? If Lysa was so eager to marry Pyter why didn't she just do it when he first got there?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I doubt it.

You think I got it wrong in spite of the fact that it would tie well with the King/Jon foreshadowing thing that we got in the books or do you doubt that D&D can be subtle ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Really liked this episode overall (more on that in the Positive Nitpicking thread). The only things I had a bit of an issue with were 1) We don't really get a lot of story progression from the material at Craster's Keep. We get a definite resolution to what happened to the brothers there, it closes off the "Craster and his wives storyline" with the wives making their own way, and Jon reunites with Ghost, that's pretty much it. Oh, and Locke dies. Saying that, it does give both Jon and Bran something to do before the end of the season, and I accept that they have to give major characters scenes every so often. It was an enjoyable watch, if largely fillery, and 2) Sandor's line "I bet his hair was greasier than Joffrey's cunt", which, yes, hilarious, let's belittle Joffrey by comparing him to a woman, like he didn't have plenty of negative points going for him all on his own, and which I'm mentally depositing in the basket of "Ill advised and tiresome lines".



I confess, I thought that the middle of this season was going to be a bit slow with such major events/ deaths in the first and last few episodes coming up, but this was a much better episode than the two that came before it, IMO.



I also noticed that the show is really doubling down on it's message of fighting fair getting you nowhere. We had Sandor's scene with Arya, pointing out that if a great swordsman goes up against a man with a real sword and armor, he's almost certainly going to lose, and then of course we had Jon vs. Karl "Focking Legend" Tanner hammering it home. With Bronn hitting Jaime around the face with his own hand last episode too, it's certainly a big recurring theme in the show.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well yes I was thinking of him playing instruments or something, not returning as a singer.

Yeah that could work, he would obviously be a good person to blame Lysa's murder on too..even more so than the book Marillion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I also noticed that the show is really doubling down on it's message of fighting fair getting you nowhere. We had Sandor's scene with Arya, pointing out that if a great swordsman goes up against a man with a real sword and armor, he's almost certainly going to lose, and then of course we had Jon vs. Karl "Focking Legend" Tanner hammering it home. With Bronn hitting Jaime around the face with his own hand last episode too, it's certainly a big recurring theme in the show.

It is a recurring theme in the whole series I'd say. We've got Robb and Ned who are honorable and everything but still get killed in treacherous ways. I think the whole honor vs. winning is the most important idea of the series or at least util CoK. And yes we get more examples in Bronn fighting at the Eyrie, Blackwater Bay and so on. Well pointed out!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So Loras Tyrell marrying the Queen Regent and Mace being on the small council isn't enough to secure the Tyrells allegiance. If that isn't enough I doubt Marg becoming queen does much. The biggest upside I guess is at least Marg won't be shopped to strengthen the Tyrells even further.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Was Locke actually going to carry Bran all the way back to the Dreadfort? Outside of being a necessary plot device, I can't see a reason for him to decide to Bran-nap. If killing him out in the snow would have satisfied Bolton's directive, he was already chained up and helpless in the 'dog room'.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Was Locke actually going to carry Bran all the way back to the Dreadfort? Outside of being a necessary plot device, I can't see a reason for him to decide to Bran-nap.

They need Rickon too. No point killing Bran if Rickon is still alive to claim Winterfell.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

for the exactly that point she doesn't know Subtlety if she was shown the definition of it; within the books it is her greatest weakness, I'm sorry I am not going to back down from that gripe; I pretty much support the show and the writers as yes they have read all the books, etc I'm just disappointed in how they are playing it out is all. :)

Except Cersei wasn't Subtle. Margery figured it out immediately which is why she said the mother/sister comment at the end, It would piss Cersei off, and she knew Cersei wouldn't say anything because she was trying to butter up the judges daughter. Tywin got everything he asked of Cersei and when she started to ask for something he said shut up and GTFO. Even Oberyn figured it out and ignored what she was asking.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bringing Syrio back is not in George's nature, despite the whole business about him not dying on screen. He has a great death, and it would cheapen him as a character to have him miraculously survive the encounter. The fact that he bites it to a lesser swordsman and complete douche is what makes his death tragic, and yet realistic.

Yes, I agree. The Hound was simply pointing out that skill won't win out against real steel and armour.

Edited by Kikiadiamond

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I hope people understood that is what "nice" Cersei was all about - working the judges -- Mace's daughter, Tywin, Oberyn.

Loud and clear. But so many book readers here were too busy looking for "whitewashing/character assassination" opportunities so they could get their hate on towards the show some more, and clearly missed it.

I also think Tywin was (mostly) lying to Cersei, because he knows she's working him, so he worked her right back, that way she wouldn't fight him anymore about marrying Loras.

As far as the biggest OMFG moment of the episode for my unsullied friends who I watch with, was Lysa/LF being behind Jon Arryn's murder. Got to hand it to them, they pay attention.

Loved that Ghost ate Rast's face off. Loved Jon making Karl literally reverse eat his sword. Loved Bran warging Hodor, and killing Locke (giant cheer from our entire living room.) Loved Pod telling Brienne about how he killed a Kingsguard to save Tyrion at the Blackwater. (Burning bunny! YUM!) Loved Dany's self-awareness discovery. Loved Bran being given a wonderful grownup-decision about how he couldn't have a moment with Jon as much as he wanted to. Loved the Jon/Ghost reunion. Loved Arya and the Hound - every moment. Want the spinoff.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They need Rickon too. No point killing Bran if Rickon is still alive to claim Winterfell.

I'd hate to see this guy go to a market. "I'm looking for two things.. but if they aren't together, I better drag the entire displays together before marking one off my list."

I was also curious about whether any of those surviving women might happen to ask what happened to the kids and the 7 foot tall guy who kept saying 'Hodor'. That would be a bit of a tell, I think, if Jon heard it a few times.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×