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[Book Spoilers] EP405 Discussion

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Well if we're going to ask insulting questions that insinuate the other person is an idiot: You do understand that there is a difference between a book and a television show, right?

And that show!Jojen refers to show!Jojen while book!Jojen refers to book!Jojen?

And that things which occurred in the books but not the show are things which occurred in the books but not the show?

You could have simply answered "Yes." As in, "I think it's plausible that Jojen, a complete stranger, was able to instantly convince Bran to risk his life on this absurd quest; yet Jon, with the baseline of already knowing and trusting Bran, would be unable to be convinced to merely step aside."

I'm trying to show you that Bran etc. fearing that Jon will stop them is not a show construct. Jojen gains Bran's trust in the show by mentioning the three eyed raven even before Bran does.

Even in the books they don't want him or anyone to know. CH doesn't tell Sam 'You can tell his brother but nobody else..he'll be fine with it.' He says 'no seekers'. None.

Do you honestly think that Jon, knowing what is beyond the Wall is going to let Bran wander around there just because he tells him; 'I saw a three eyed raven in a vision'? Honestly? Would that would convince you in that situation?

Jon might trust Bran completely but there's a point where everyone says; 'No I'm not going to let that happen'.

Show Bran impresses upon Sam that he has to go beyond the Wall and presumably Sam relayed this to Jon but Jon still said he would have stopped them if he hadn't been injured.

Edited by NightStark

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I'm trying to show you that Bran etc. fearing that Jon will stop them is not a show construct. Jojen gains Bran's trust in the show by mentioning the three eyed raven even before Bran does.

Even in the books they don't want him or anyone to know. CH doesn't tell Sam 'You can tell his brother but nobody else..he'll be fine with it.' He says 'no seekers'. None.

Do you honestly think that Jon, knowing what is beyond the Wall is going to let Bran wander around there just because he tells him; 'I saw a three eyed raven in a vision'? Honestly? Would that would convince you in that situation?

Jon might trust Bran completely but there's a point where everyone says; 'No I'm not going to let that happen'.

Show Bran impresses upon Sam that he has to go beyond the Wall and presumably Sam relayed this to Jon but Jon still said he would have stopped them if he hadn't been injured.

Bran not wanting anyone to know and never having the opportunity to explain it to Jon is a book construct.

Bran not caring if Jon knows, despite the assumption that he'll unnecessarily risk his life in response to the knowledge, is a show construct.

Bran having the opportunity to convince Jon with the help of mini-Jesus's superpowers, yet deciding that Jon is too much of a moron to understand what Bran, Meera, and Osha all easily understood (and despite the fact that his failure to do so unnecessarily puts Jon's life in danger), is a show construct.

I understand the difference, hence why I recognize the book construct is sound and the show construct is moronic, hence my making the effort of my original post.

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This morning at work I mentioned to my Unsullied co-worker how ridiculous the big reveal was (the Jon Arryn killing). And he was like "what big reveal" and then "who is Lysa again ?". I don't think the Unsullied get how this is a major reveal.



Another thing. LF is brilliant. His plots are amazing. No one suspects him for the Arryn murder. No one suspects him for the Joffrey murder. He probably knows (how wouldn't he anyway) that there's a bounty on Sansa's head. And now we're supposed to believe it's ok for him to share the secret with an 8yo kid (who has issues) ? Does that mean poor Sweetrobin will die for that ? I can't see LF being so lousy about that.



It's like D&D are unmysifying LF's character by making him do two apparent stupid mistakes (having a niece without having a brother or a sister (we must assume he has, now), letting Lysa reveal Sansa's identity to Robin)

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Bran not wanting anyone to know and never having the opportunity to explain it to Jon is a book construct.

Bran not caring if Jon knows, despite the assumption that he'll unnecessarily risk his life in response to the knowledge, is a show construct.

Bran having the opportunity to convince Jon with the help of mini-Jesus's superpowers, yet deciding that Jon is too much of a moron to understand what Bran, Meera, and Osha all easily understood (and despite the fact that his failure to do so unnecessarily puts Jon's life in danger), is a show construct.

I understand the difference, hence why I recognize the book construct is sound and the show construct is moronic, hence my making the effort of my original post.

Bran was free to tell Sam(once he got to know him); 'Tell Jon I'm ok but I have to do this..3 eyed raven etc.' but he never does. He obviously wouldn't have been able to do that for Bran because CH extracts the promise from him later but Bran never even tries.

He knows what Jon will do, Bran etc. already make Sam promise not to tell before CH does because they can understand that their plan would make no sense to Jon.

I don't understand what Jojen's powers have to do with convincing Jon, he can only use words like Bran. His vision of the tree, his hand burning etc. were all his own visions..the rest weren't sharing them so he can't use them on Jon. All he can do is say; 'We need to find the cave..raven etc.' They have no evidence to actually show Jon, all he could do is accept their word and he wouldn't do that. Not when he knows what is out there. Bran might be very trustworthy but you have to balance risk vs. reward..in Jon's mind there would be every chance that Bran and the crew will die, they'll either be killed by Mance's army or an Other/wight.

Jon knows that a significant number of his family are dead, he's not going to allow one of his only remaining siblings to walk into probably the most dangerous place in Westeros. Bran saying; 'We can protect ourselves' or such wouldn't convince Jon, they were just captured by the mutineers who aren't exactly on Other/wildling level of awareness.

Edited by NightStark

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The Good- GOT has come a long way from Season 1 with its wigs



The Bad- I guess the cool book stuff with the Cold Hands and the Weirwood Door won't be happening on the show



The Ugly- Lysa is gonna be as cat-shit crazy as she is in the books


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I don't get why certain people think Cersei was behaving out of character in this ep. Sure, she is less dumb and bitchy in the show, but it's important to note that she only has three scenes in this episode, and each one of them is with someone who has the power to convict Tyrion (Margaery by extension of her father, obvs). She is playing at being calm, although I do believe her mourning is very real. But in certain moments, and I have to habd it to Lena Headey for this, you can see how angry she really is.


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Bran not wanting anyone to know and never having the opportunity to explain it to Jon is a book construct.

Bran not caring if Jon knows, despite the assumption that he'll unnecessarily risk his life in response to the knowledge, is a show construct.

Bran having the opportunity to convince Jon with the help of mini-Jesus's superpowers, yet deciding that Jon is too much of a moron to understand what Bran, Meera, and Osha all easily understood (and despite the fact that his failure to do so unnecessarily puts Jon's life in danger), is a show construct.

I understand the difference, hence why I recognize the book construct is sound and the show construct is moronic, hence my making the effort of my original post.

You're trying way too hard. There is no issue of the logic with either scenario. Bran has more than enough reason not to interact with Jon, and his not doing so doesn't put Jon's life in any more danger than it already was. Jon didn't come to Craster's Keep to rescue Bran, since he didn't even know - but had only posited - that Bran could come across the place.

I think it's been made clear that Bran's journey is of utmost importance, and that he can't let anything stop him from reaching his destination (which Jon would undoubtedly try to do). Bran would only be making it harder for himself and for Jon (emotionally and physically, since Jon would have been able to force Bran to come with him in a way that Sam & Gilly could not), by contacting him and attempting to explain his esoteric reasoning behind his decision to travel north.

Also, Osha quite clearly did not truly understand or agree with Bran's decision, hence why she and Rickon left the group. And to say that Hodor 'easily understands' the reason they're on this journey is kind of silly. I'm thinking his main goal is simply to stick by the person he's closest with, regardless of what he's doing and where he's going.

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In the books, it's mentioned that the Greatjon raided three of the Lannister gold mines. Nothing was ever mentioned of it again in the books. If they had worked that into the show, this might have made a little more sense.

Seems to me they did via how they just did, via Tywin. Perhaps too subtle for most obsessed book readers. :)

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The Good- GOT has come a long way from Season 1 with its wigs

The Bad- I guess the cool book stuff with the Cold Hands and the Weirwood Door won't be happening on the show1

The Ugly- Lysa is gonna be as cat bat-shit crazy as she is in the books2

1 Most of the Magic from Westeros is left off the show, no Patchface, Coldhands, Ghost of High Heart, or the Black Gate and we have yet to hear rumor of a certain Lady. Least not forget that Jon, Rickon, Arya and Sansa don't appear to be wargs. I would think that they leave out the CoTF expect season 4 last ep is name some like "the Children"

2. Well the actress did pretty good job of acting like that in season 1.

I don't get why certain people think Cersei was behaving out of character in this ep. Sure, she is less dumb and bitchy in the show3, but it's important to note that she only has three scenes in this episode, and each one of them is with someone who has the power to convict Tyrion (Margaery by extension of her father, obvs). She is playing at being calm, although I do believe her mourning is very real. But in certain moments, and I have to habd it to Lena Headey for this, you can see how angry she really is.

On the show it is more then she is "less dumb, and bitchy" They play her like a victim, you don't get how much she has done to others, or how truly awful her plan are ( both as a plan, and what she wants to do to others). At least IMO Book Cersei never really cares that Joff died. Much like Tywin view of Tyrion's being w/ whores, its about how his death make her look, and what she is suppose to do. It only get worse at the next one.

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I don't get why certain people think Cersei was behaving out of character in this ep. Sure, she is less dumb and bitchy in the show, but it's important to note that she only has three scenes in this episode, and each one of them is with someone who has the power to convict Tyrion (Margaery by extension of her father, obvs). She is playing at being calm, although I do believe her mourning is very real. But in certain moments, and I have to habd it to Lena Headey for this, you can see how angry she really is.

I don't get it either - how can book readers actually believe that Cersei is really cuddling up to Marge and Oberyn? It is so obvious that she is trying to convince them that she's the poor bereft and abused mother and neglected child. Also, book Cersei is certainly not as dumb as some seem to believe. The problem is that by getting her POV, we see more of her weaknesses and irrational decisions, which clouds the fact that, though with some notable exceptions, she is good a playing the Game of Thrones. B&B are not bad writers, they have proven that several times. They won't make us like Cersei (not before the Walk of Shame, anyway). The fact that they got so many book readers confused is actually showing how good their screenplays may be.

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Also, Osha quite clearly did not truly understand or agree with Bran's decision, hence why she and Rickon left the group. And to say that Hodor 'easily understands' the reason they're on this journey is kind of silly. I'm thinking his main goal is simply to stick by the person he's closest with, regardless of what he's doing and where he's going.

Which is why she stopped him.

Oh wait...

Maybe you should try a little harder? At this point you're disagreeing with reality (in Osha) and a straw man (in Hodor). It's pretty sad...

Edited by iknownothingjonsnow

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Which is why she stopped him.

Oh wait...

Maybe you should try a little harder? At this point you're disagreeing with reality (in Osha) and a straw man (in Hodor). It's pretty sad...

And how, exactly, would Osha have stopped Bran? She didn't stop him because it wasn't her place to do so. Your points here don't make any sense, and you seem to have ignored the main counter-points I provided in order to... What? Show that you don't understand how logical fallacies work, and/or don't know how to explain yourself clearly? Either refute the points made against your initial statements (which you haven't done), or concede that your complaints don't make any sense when taken in the context of what the show has presented.

How does Bran not interacting with Jon put him in more danger? How would Jojen's powers convince Jon that Bran must take this journey when Bran's powers would not do the same? How did you come to the conclusion that Bran considers Jon too "moronic" to understand his need to travel north, when Bran's own understanding on his journey is so esoteric?

The irony of calling someone's argument a straw man while you're in the process of doing exactly that is... Well, it isn't sad, but it is pretty stupid.

Edited by Khal-a-bunga

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In fairness, it's not an unfair assumption to make on their part. What person would allow their crippled younger brother, a sickly looking boy, a young girl and a simple giant to go wandering beyond the Wall? It's not that they're casting aspertions on Jon's character, more that they realise the absurdity of what they're doing and how crazy it would sound if they tried to explain it.

'We're looking for a raven with three eyes Jon, he's up here somewhere'.

It's insightful I think, I'd assume Jon would do exactly as Jojen said he would.

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The opening scene where Tommen gets crowned by the High Septon really annoyed me. hasn't happened in the books yet



SPOILERS FOR DWD (I think)












Cersai needs to cancel the church's debt with the faith ( which hasn't been mentioned once in the show) so she abolishes maegor's law which allows the faith millitant

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And how, exactly, would Osha have stopped Bran? She didn't stop him because it wasn't her place to do so. Your points here don't make any sense, and you seem to have ignored the main counter-points I provided in order to... What? Show that you don't understand how logical fallacies work, and/or don't know how to explain yourself clearly? Either refute the points made against your initial statements (which you haven't done), or concede that your complaints don't make any sense when taken in the context of what the show has presented.

How does Bran not interacting with Jon put him in more danger? How would Jojen's powers convince Jon that Bran must take this journey when Bran's powers would not do the same? How did you come to the conclusion that Bran considers Jon too "moronic" to understand his need to travel north, when Bran's own understanding on his journey is so esoteric?

The irony of calling someone's argument a straw man while you're in the process of doing exactly that is... Well, it isn't sad, but it is pretty stupid.

Ok, well perhaps learn what a straw argument is before you throw the term around incorrectly, and consider actually reading the relevant posts before you respond. That way you wouldn't make irrelevant points which were addressed pages ago, and you wouldn't get your panties in a bunch when your irrelevant points get ignored.

You wouldn't that type of instruction would be necessary, but I guess there are always people like you to come around and defy common sense...

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Ok, well perhaps learn what a straw argument is before you throw the term around incorrectly, and consider actually reading the relevant posts before you respond. That way you wouldn't make irrelevant points which were addressed pages ago, and you wouldn't get your panties in a bunch when your irrelevant points get ignored.

You wouldn't that type of instruction would be necessary, but I guess there are always people like you to come around and defy common sense...

The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position. This sort of "reasoning" has the following pattern:

Ignore away, as you seemingly do with the actual substance and context of how things played out in the show in order to make illogical points

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