[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa IX: The birth of Alayne Stone

[voodooqueen126]

The big problem with the wedding ring is that I can't think of any other female married character in Westeros who wears one (and forget about the men): Talisa doesn't wear one, Margaery doesn't wear one, and even Lysa isn't wearing a wedding ring after wedding Petyr this episode (she's wearing the same flashy ring on her ring finger both before and after marrying Petyr). I didn't even think that Sansa's ring was a wedding ring at first for that reason, but if you look at Sansa's hands in 3x08, she's not wearing a ring before the wedding ceremony, and at the first shot of her at the wedding feast, there's a ring on her finger, so I guess that's what we're supposed to think.

The ring didn't bother me too, too much at first, since I was expecting that Sansa would rip the ring off and fling it into the sea while on Petyr's ship as a symbolic demonstration of her liberation from the oppressive Lannister yoke, and that the point of the ring was to mark her transformation from Lannister pawn to Alayne Stone. Not only did that not happen, but she's still wearing it, even though she's already started to masquerade as Alayne. She's even wearing it in bed in the scene where she's trying to ignore Lysa's screams. I guess the "rip the ring off and throw it away" scene could be upcoming, but I still don't know why the writers bothered with the ring in the first place, unless they think that the audience is going to forget that Sansa was married without a visual reminder.

Worth noting that Lysa's Jon Arryn reveal was told to Petyr privately, this along with Sansa's defence of Tyrion, could mean they are setting up Sansa to be remain ignorant and a victim of Littlefinger, so that she can be rescued by Saint Tyrion later down the track.

[Dragon of Valyria]

ugh. The combination of character assassination on Sansa with the continued hagiography of Tyrion is just destroying her plotline.

[Newstar]

Worth noting that Lysa's Jon Arryn reveal was told to Petyr privately, this along with Sansa's defence of Tyrion, could mean they are setting up Sansa to be remain ignorant and a victim of Littlefinger, so that she can be rescued by Saint Tyrion later down the track.

Man, don't even joke about that shizz.

ugh. The combination of character assassination on Sansa with the continued hagiography of Tyrion is just destroying her plotline.

A+ use of "hagiography."

It is a little over the top this season, though, especially when it comes to Tyrion and Sansa. In five episodes we've had the following:

4x01: Tyrion tries to comfort Sansa, tells Oberyn that he's sworn off whores now that he's married, refuses to go to bed with Shae (whereas Book Tyrion had no compunction when it came to bedding Shae and did nothing to comfort Sansa because he thought she wouldn't want comfort from a Lannister)

4x02: Tyrion/Sansa talking at the wedding ("We have a new queen"), Tyrion holds Sansa's hand, Sansa hands Tyrion the cup to help salvage his dignity (whereas Book Sansa is distant and unmoved by Tyrion's humiliation and Tyrion is self-pitying and bitter)

4x03: Tyrion takes the news that Sansa's gone surprisingly well, insists Sansa's not a killer (whereas Book Tyrion thought Sansa could have done it, if not alone).

4x04: Tyrion again insists that Sansa's no killer (...yet), Sansa immediately denies that Tyrion was responsible for Joffrey's murder with no logical basis except "just knowing" (whereas Book Tyrion and Book Sansa each believed the other capable of the murder)

4x05: Sansa earnestly insists that Tyrion didn't want to marry her and that he was made to marry her by the Lannisters just as she was made to marry him (whereas Book Sansa stated in response to the same question that she was made to marry him by "them," meaning the Lannisters including Tyrion, and she never wanted it)

In isolation, each change from ASOS is not really anything to write home about, but when piled on top of each other, my God.

[Colonel Green]

The Bloody Gate discussion was kind of silly, and it made the Eyrie look like it wasn't very high at all -- certainly not anywhere near the top of Giant's Lance.

That's not new. The TV Eyrie has never been remotely as tall as the Book Eyrie.

Worth noting that Lysa's Jon Arryn reveal was told to Petyr privately, this along with Sansa's defence of Tyrion, could mean they are setting up Sansa to be remain ignorant and a victim of Littlefinger, so that she can be rescued by Saint Tyrion later down the track.

I actually do think they may be planning not to include Lysa's babbling about the murder during the Moon Door scene, if they feel they can't adequately explain why that revelation doesn't produce any visible changes in Sansa's behavior toward Littlefinger. In the books GRRM was originally going to jump five years into the future and presumably return to a Stockholm'd Sansa, which had to be changed, resulting in the revelation being dismissed in a single paragraph for the time being.

[Dragon of Valyria]

Sure, we got that CG shot of it overlooking the Vale in season 1. But it looks a lot worse now that we've seen the Bloody Gate, with the Eyrie basically four inches above it.

edit: And on that note, what's with the discussion of the lack of lemons? What, the flippin' Vale of Arryn doesn't have lemons?? Absurd. There isn't even the siege of the Lords Declarant or the closing of the passes yet. Of course the Vale can supply lemons to the Eyrie, they don't need LF to run special deliveries.

[Fat Trell]

Now that's an interesting observation. They did cut out *a lot* of Sandor's stuff with Sansa. I hope you're wrong though.

I'm really looking forward to seeing Robin and Sansa interact. Even with Robin trusting Littlefinger, I doubt LF will want to have much to do with Sweet Robin.

I certainly hope so too. Not a big fan of the Sandor-Sansa relationship but give me that over more of Saint Tyrion.

I'm not really saying Littlefinger will have a bigger personal relationship with Robin. More so that his fear and hatred of Petyr is crucial to the way he acts, and thus, his interactions with Sansa.

The big problem with the wedding ring is that I can't think of any other female married character in Westeros who wears one (and forget about the men): Talisa doesn't wear one, Margaery doesn't wear one, and even Lysa isn't wearing a wedding ring after wedding Petyr this episode (she's wearing the same flashy ring on her ring finger both before and after marrying Petyr). I didn't even think that Sansa's ring was a wedding ring at first for that reason, but if you look at Sansa's hands in 3x08, she's not wearing a ring before the wedding ceremony, and at the first shot of her at the wedding feast, there's a ring on her finger, so I guess that's what we're supposed to think.

The ring didn't bother me too, too much at first, since I was expecting that Sansa would rip the ring off and fling it into the sea while on Petyr's ship as a symbolic demonstration of her liberation from the oppressive Lannister yoke, and that the point of the ring was to mark her transformation from Lannister pawn to Alayne Stone. Not only did that not happen, but she's still wearing it, even though she's already started to masquerade as Alayne. She's even wearing it in bed in the scene where she's trying to ignore Lysa's screams, even though there was a shot of her night table (or whatever the medieval equivalent is) where she could have placed the ring (like most people do with their rings at night). I guess the "rip the ring off and throw it away" scene could be upcoming, or the ring could just disappear discreetly before Sansa's next episode, but I still don't know why the writers bothered with the ring in the first place, unless they think that the audience is going to forget that Sansa was married without a visual reminder.

Yeah I honestly just noticed it tonight. Seems very out of place imo. Especially considering Sansa is supposed to be in hiding. But then again, Show Littlefinger is a well established dumbass who spouts his plans both in public and to one of his greatest rivals.

I agree it would have been an excellent touch for Sansa to have thrown her ring into the sea after Dontos' death. But given the treatment of Tyrion, Sansa will likely keep it as a memento of her kind and selfless husband. No doubt she will look upon it before she marries Harrold Hardying with nostalgia for all the warm moments she spent not getting raped by her husband.

[Mistress of Lemon Cakes]

My only question is whether it's Alayne Stone or Alayne Baelish now.

Also ... did anyone else notice that Sweet Robin didn't exactly look ... sickly?

Maybe we'll be treated to a seizure at a late point this season. Hmmm.

And as always ... Sophie was on point again in this episode. She is such a fantastically subtle actress.

[stunningsteve]

Funny thing is that Lysa told her she mustn't call her "aunt Lysa" before anybody else, but with Alayne being LFs niece Lysa is actually her aunt by marriage.

[voodooqueen126]

Man, don't even joke about that shizz.

A+ use of "hagiography."

It is a little over the top this season, though, especially when it comes to Tyrion and Sansa. In five episodes we've had the following:

4x01: Tyrion tries to comfort Sansa, tells Oberyn that he's sworn off whores now that he's married, refuses to go to bed with Shae (whereas Book Tyrion had no compunction when it came to bedding Shae and did nothing to comfort Sansa because he thought she wouldn't want comfort from a Lannister)

4x02: Tyrion/Sansa talking at the wedding ("We have a new queen"), Tyrion holds Sansa's hand, Sansa hands Tyrion the cup to help salvage his dignity (whereas Book Sansa is distant and Tyrion is self-pitying and bitter)

4x03: Tyrion takes the news that Sansa's gone surprisingly well, insists Sansa's not a killer (whereas Book Tyrion thought Sansa could have done it, if not alone).

4x04: Tyrion again insists that Sansa's no killer (...yet), Sansa immediately denies that Tyrion was responsible for Joffrey's murder with no logical basis except "just knowing" (whereas Book Tyrion and Book Sansa each believed the other capable of the murder)

4x05: Sansa earnestly insists that Tyrion didn't want to marry her and that he was made to marry her by the Lannisters just as she was made to marry him (whereas Book Sansa stated in response to the same question that she was made to marry him and she never wanted it)

I am not joking. Whilst I ultimately think Tyrion and Sansa are ultimately the end game, in the books, this will be portrayed as a tragedy: a beautiful girl must prostitute herself to a depraved, rapist with Greyscale/VD (book Tyrion without euphemisms), so that she can use Lannister gold to rebuild Winterfell, thus sacrificing her happiness for the good of Rickon and the Starks... to the show's "Look at the stupid, spoiled teenage girl who is rude to her Septa and licks her fingers, lucky she got rescued from Obviously!EVIL!Littlefinger by St Tyrion, whom she loves because he is so nice and funny, even though the Gold Mines under Casterly Rock are empty" Thus erasing the very scary female gaze for the benefit of male viewers, and teaching female viewers the lesson that they should love a man who is short, has scoliosis and arms too short to wipe his own backside and has a 50% chance of passing on those undesirable traits to their children, whilst being beautiful and thin, because fat women are just the worst.

[Newstar]

Yeah I honestly just noticed it tonight. Seems very out of place imo. Especially considering Sansa is supposed to be in hiding. But then again, Show Littlefinger is a well established dumbass who spouts his plans both in public and to one of his greatest rivals.

I agree it would have been an excellent touch for Sansa to have thrown her ring into the sea after Dontos' death. But given the treatment of Tyrion, Sansa will likely keep it as a memento of her kind and selfless husband. No doubt she will look upon it before she marries Harrold Hardying with nostalgia for all the warm moments she spent not getting raped by her husband.

It would be one thing if it were a subtle, tasteful band or something, but because it's a Lannister ring the props people sensibly made it a flashy, tacky monstrosity that's impossible not to notice, and because the ring represents an ongoing insult both to the book continuity--where wedding rings do not exist--and to show continuity, where no other female married character wears a wedding ring, the garish design is just adding insult to injury.

Long story short, the ring really bothers me. I've even more annoyed about the ring than I am about Alayne being LF's niece and not changing her hair. It's like Sansa licking her fingers or Sansa somehow wearing her Blackwater dress instead of her PW dress in this episode: it's always the little things.

so that she can use Lannister gold

As we learned this episode, what Lannister gold? Womp womp!

[SerArthurHeath]

Sweetrobin will have a fit or something next episode to remind everyone that he's sickly I think

[Newstar]

Sweetrobin will have a fit or something next episode to remind everyone that he's sickly I think

Yeah, the little guy seemed pretty spry in this episode, although mentally he seemed a bit...off: expressing great and sincere pleasure in Petyr's gift and then great pleasure in chucking it out the Moon Door never to return. It would be one thing if he was unimpressed with the gift and then chucked it out the Moon Door--somewhat like Joffrey chopped up Tyrion's gift in 4x02--but the weird thing is that he seemed truly happy with the gift...and just as happy to fling it out the Moon Door.

[Colonel Green]

Yeah, the little guy seemed pretty spry in this episode, although mentally he seemed a bit...off: expressing great and sincere pleasure in Petyr's gift and then great pleasure in chucking it out the Moon Door never to return. It would be one thing if he was unimpressed with the gift and then chucked it out the Moon Door--somewhat like Joffrey chopped up Tyrion's gift in 4x02--but the weird thing is that he seemed truly happy with the gift...and just as happy to fling it out the Moon Door.

I didn't think those were irreconcilable. He liked the gift, and then he was enthusiastic to show how the Moon Door worked, so he threw the thing he had at hand through it. Basically he's a little kid without much impulse control.

[SerArthurHeath]

It was a bird, no? Birds fly, right?

[ache]

Sweetrobin will have a fit or something next episode to remind everyone that he's sickly I think

Hilariously bad if they actually do this - the episode after we see paranoid, overprotective mummy Lysa totally unfazed by her epileptic son playing around the open moon door.

[Red Tiger]

I am not joking. Whilst I ultimately think Tyrion and Sansa are ultimately the end game, in the books, this will be portrayed as a tragedy: a beautiful girl must prostitute herself to a depraved, rapist with Greyscale/VD (book Tyrion without euphemisms), so that she can use Lannister gold to rebuild Winterfell, thus sacrificing her happiness for the good of Rickon and the Starks... to the show's "Look at the stupid, spoiled teenage girl who is rude to her Septa and licks her fingers, lucky she got rescued from Obviously!EVIL!Littlefinger by St Tyrion, whom she loves because he is so nice and funny, even though the Gold Mines under Casterly Rock are empty" Thus erasing the very scary female gaze for the benefit of male viewers, and teaching female viewers the lesson that they should love a man who is short, has scoliosis and arms too short to wipe his own backside and has a 50% chance of passing on those undesirable traits to their children, whilst being beautiful and thin, because fat women are just the worst.

Goddammit man, you wanna push me into clinical depression?

[Newstar]

Hilariously bad if they actually do this - the episode after we see paranoid, overprotective mummy Lysa totally unfazed by her epileptic son playing around the open moon door.

He certainly seemed pretty hale and hearty for a supposedly sickly child.

[Pod The Impaler]

Being Petyr's "niece" instead of his "daughter" adds a bit of a different dynamic (a less creepy one, for sure), but I don't think it's such a terrible change, so we'll see

Also, when Petyr is giving her the whole "Bloody Gate 101" thing I thought this is A ) foreshadowing for when the Lords Declarant besiege the Eyrie or B ) information that Sansa will use much later when (if the Gods are kind!) she takes some kind of control of the Eyrie

What else?...Oh, yeah. Sweetrobin's affection for LF. I don't know, it adds another layer of deviousness to his character, but I always thought it was funny how LF was basically disgusted by Robin and how Robin basically gave zero shits about LF in the books

Overall, Sophie's acting was very strong

1) I am a bit peeved that they chose "niece" instead of "daughter". It does change the dynamic, and not for the better. Not so much for what other people would know, but what they might expect from Alayne later on.

2) I like that Sweetrobin is pals with Petyr for the moment, but also that he threw Petyr's gift right out the Moon Door. Perfect. :laugh:

I actually do think they may be planning not to include Lysa's babbling about the murder during the Moon Door scene, if they feel they can't adequately explain why that revelation doesn't produce any visible changes in Sansa's behavior toward Littlefinger.

I hope that they are not going to alter the Moon Door scene in that way. That's much of what made it such a shocker - perhaps they've revealed too much of Lysa's craziness.

[Pod The Impaler]

He certainly seemed pretty hale and hearty for a supposedly sickly child.

Perhaps Jojen used up this week's entire supply of sickly.

[queensansa]

The hair color thing is probably something we just have to accept. They'll have her wear her hood in public instead.

Probably not feasible to dye her hair, or maybe Sophie didn't want to. Maybe they tried a wig and it looked horrible

I saw Sophie Turner's hair being dyed in one of the behind-the-scenes videos (possibly A Foreshadowing, although I can't guarantee) so I guess they'll have her hair dyed during her next appearance.

Funny thing is that Lysa told her she mustn't call her "aunt Lysa" before anybody else, but with Alayne being LFs niece Lysa is actually her aunt by marriage.

Yeah, funny how that worked out. The only way they can get around that is if Alayne is in fact a bastard niece, and therefore wouldn't refer to Lysa as 'Aunt' anyway.

I doubt they'd make Alayne legitimate, since Sansa's dislike of bastards is somewhat prominent to her character. 'Alayne Stone' has a ring to it also.