(Book spoilers) So the Lannister gold has dried up?

[The Marquis de Leech]

Yes, but if the gold supply had been running out, it'd have been a gradual long-term process, a process Tywin would have had to deal with, and which everyone else would know about. Mines don't suddenly go from healthy capacity to nothing overnight, unless there's war, disaster, or Margaret Thatcher involved.

[The Marquis de Leech]

Edit: actually just rewatched and that particular episode says it is from Tywin the crown has borrowed millions.

Yes, that's the point. The Crown borrowed gold from Tywin. And spent it. Now the Crown can't pay it back, and Tywin supposedly finds himself fresh out of gold. If that's the case, then Tywin's an idiot for lending the money in the first place.

(Hence my Tywin is lying theory).

[Sun]

Yes, but if the gold supply had been running out, it'd have been a gradual long-term process, a process Tywin would have had to deal with, and which everyone else would know about. Mines don't suddenly go from healthy capacity to nothing overnight, unless there's war, disaster, or Margaret Thatcher involved.

LOL beautifully done. :thumbsup:

[SynthFG]

This isn't the case in the books. We know the mines are still pumping out gold like its nobodies business because Robb secures a few mines when he's raiding the Westerlands and they comment on it. The only mines that have failed are those belonging to the Crag.

So, for the show, even if the mines under casterly rock(all the mines in all of westeros, or just the casterly rock mines??) have failed, they still have the immense profits from all the trade going through Lannisport.

So

1. Dumb change, that didn;t need to happen, we will see Lannister power erode in other ways

2. Doesn't even do a good job of showing Lannister's running out of money, because they still have a huge secondary source of revenues.

Actually all the books really say is that the Umbars have taken the mines,

I don't imagine they left them functioning when they pulled out

We also know that his army drove significant herds of cattle back with them

It very much looks like Rob's campaign in the West would have closely mirrored the Mountains Chevauchee in the Riverlands, it's just that we never get a POV of it to see the damage, but it's clear from the bits we get that the remaining Lannister forces in the west pulled back behind fortified walls and Rob's forces battered everything else,

Ergo the Lannister Tax base has been as thoroughly destroyed as that of the Riverlands (if not more so) , there's nothing left to trade,with

It 's clear that the Lannister Cash reserves were spent on the war and so Casterly Rock may well be facing a liquidity crisis that Tywin and Kevin have been hiding from Cerci and the rest of the world

[salmonsnake]

Yes, that's the point. The Crown borrowed gold from Tywin. And spent it. Now the Crown can't pay it back, and Tywin supposedly finds himself fresh out of gold. If that's the case, then Tywin's an idiot for lending the money in the first place.

(Hence my Tywin is lying theory).

So in that theory, the reason he's telling this lie to Cersei and not the small council is to convince Cersei that the Tyrells are needed? And the reason the show brings up the issue (in addition to further introducing us to the IBB and the decline of Lannisters) is to assure the audience that the decisions Cersei makes after Tywin's death are not due to some instinctive suspicion that the Tyrells might've been involved in Joff's death, but that it is simply irrational, paranoid behaviour and that she should know better?

[Pliskin]

It does when the Iron Bank hasn't been paid for 4 years. It justifies having to deal with the IBB and having to renegotiate the loan. The IBB plays hardball then they are up the creek without a paddle.

Yes, but it hardly justifies why the Iron Bank would seek Stannis instead.

[salmonsnake]

Yes, but it hardly justifies why the Iron Bank would seek Stannis instead.

It may not be enough for them to seek Stannis, but conveniently, it will have been Stannis that sought them

[Ser Desmond Wine's Bane]

Yes, but it hardly justifies why the Iron Bank would seek Stannis instead.

They didn't seek Stannis. He sought them. All he has to do is demonstrate a compelling case for why he would be a lower bad debt risk than the Lannisters. Actually, he doesn't even have to demonstrate that. If they believe he can pay them back AND they believe the Lannisters will also pay them back, why not fund both sides to raise both sides debt exposure to the IBB. Its a high-risk game, but also higher reward. The IBB will own them both.

[Mr Fixit]

why not fund both sides to raise both sides debt exposure to the IBB. Its a high-risk game, but also higher reward. The IBB will own them both.

That's a great point. In modern politics this happens all the time - those with money often back several candidates so that whoever wins is in their pocket.

[Pliskin]

They didn't seek Stannis. He sought them. All he has to do is demonstrate a compelling case for why he would be a lower bad debt risk than the Lannisters. Actually, he doesn't even have to demonstrate that. If they believe he can pay them back AND they believe the Lannisters will also pay them back, why not fund both sides to raise both sides debt exposure to the IBB. Its a high-risk game, but also higher reward. The IBB will own them both.

I see.

Not relevant to the debate here, but I must still point out that in the books it was the Iron Bank (via Tycho something) that sought Stannis, not the other way around (as in the show). Tycho went to the Wall, hoping to find Stannis IIRC, after Cersei's refusal to pay.

[Dorne Sand]

Again I agree with many here

Most dont mind changes. But we find those changes botched in so many ways with very little value added. The show could have stated that the war have strained badly their ressources, that robb sacking their castle has done more damage that they let know, that stannis is still on the field and they may have to save coin in order to face him. If the aim is to underline the need of the tyrels, suffice to say they are the key to the south, the north is still unsetteled and dorne is dubious at best. Make it about food and supplies if you want. Make it about bad harvest to come. Make it something else.

Why make them completly out of gold? What does that bring to the show compared to how it damages character evolution and actions? why create such potential butterfly effects with so very little value added?

It is the same for what happens in the wall, the hole gilly to mole town and then oh crap i forgot they were wildlings attacking villages. Then lets make it to crasters for whatever reason just when bran is there and ghost is in a cage well fed..

For me, D&D have botched the after purple wedding episodes. this seaon is very confusing and sometimes boring even for a non book reader ( i happen to watch the show with one). the trade offs made vs the book do not bring anything to the show IMHO. If the craster thing was to bring some good action and rythm well it was badely build as a plot and not that good watching.

what is critized is not the change or the show not being canon. It is what I consider botched writing

[Cas Stark]

Right. It isn't that all change is bad, but changes like this....which is really a huge change, there is no more gold, e.g. the Lannisters no matter what they do can never regain or maintain their position, is too much when the purpose is most likely to simply emphasize the Iron Bank's power.

It will totally change Cersei's motivations for what she does in the future, making her destroying the Tyrell alliance even crazier than it was in the book.

It occurred to me that the books could reveal this later on, but I'm not sure even GRRM could plausibly put together a scenario where the mines have been dry for 3 years and somehow Tywin has managed to keep this a secret....how could he do this? The miners would know they're either not finding gold anymore or not mining at all, and to keep this quiet would require tons of money on its own for payoffs and security, etc.

It could be that in the future the mines will dry up as the final blow to the Lannisters, but pulling it forward this much makes too much difference in Cersei's storyline.

[Lord Varys]

After re-watching this dreadful episode, I realized that Tywin explicitly mentions 'the mines in the Westerlands'. This means not only the personal mines of House Lannister are dry, but all the mines in the Westerlands, including those of Tywin's bannermen.

Can anyone possibly believe this would not be public knowledge among the nobility of Westeros, if this is the case since three fucking years? The Crown would have known about that, Robert would have known about that, Ned would have known about that, everyone would have known about that, and no one would have ever mentioned the outrageous amount of money the Lannisters supposedly possessed. Nor would have anyone have feared Tywin's wealth throughout the coming war, if he could not really afford to spent that much money during the fighting.

What happened to 'Gold wins wars, not soldiers', 'Have you ever heard the phrase 'as rich as a Lannister', 'Not so much money as the Lannisters [Renly to Loras about Mace's riches]', 'the richest man in the Seven Kingdoms' etc.?

This series rewrites itself and is already hugely contradicting itself. Loras was already a member of the KG and cannot join Joffrey's KG now because he would then lose his claim to Highgarden as Mace's only son? Why did he then join Renly's KG? Season 2 established the Tyrells only as third power insofar as their manpower is concerned. The Lannisters and Starks were the most powerful houses according to Littlefinger's conversation with Tywin. Now the Tyrells are not even more powerful but also richer than the Lannisters.

[Chebyshov]

After re-watching this dreadful episode, I realized that Tywin explicitly mentions 'the mines in the Westerlands'. This means not only the personal mines of House Lannister are dry, but all the mines in the Westerlands, including those of Tywin's bannermen.

Can anyone possibly believe this would not be public knowledge among the nobility of Westeros, if this is the case since three fucking years? The Crown would have known about that, Robert would have known about that, Ned would have known about that, everyone would have known about that, and no one would have ever mentioned the outrageous amount of money the Lannisters supposedly possessed. Nor would have anyone have feared Tywin's wealth throughout the coming war, if he could not really afford to spent that much money during the fighting.

I had the same exact thought. If it is a plot point in TWOW (though as has been mentioned, Kevan and Cersei never thought twice about it), then it seems like it'd have to be a recent development, not one three years in the making. My only thought is that maybe just Tywin knows all the mines dried up, and everyone else in the Westerlands assumes there are other mines with gold still, even if theirs are without? Seems unlikely no one would know about this though.

[DrownedSnow]

The Lannisters would have such huge stacks of gold it wouldn't be all gone right away so the three years things make sense. They have plenty of other income to sustain themselves outside of war time but with war they couldn't maintain paying for the expenses of the kingdom forever. I still think this change has more to do with explaining why Tywin, and eventually Kevan, didn't pay off the Iron Bank. They are looking to make that a point before the end of the season so it would be before Tywin is killed and Cersei has a chance to tell the bank where to stick it. It would make zero sense to the TV audience that Tywin didn't pay them if he could.

Basically, what do you think show viewers would find less believable, that Tywin kept the empty mines quiet or that he wouldn't use his infinite gold to avoid making a big enemy? How many people will even question that ruthless Tywin killed off anyone he needed to keep it quiet or just used already mined gold to make it appear they were still working or something? Doubt most will give it a thought. When the Iron Bank starts to turn the tides against the Lannisters they all would have been shouting "why didn't Tywin pay them off with his endless supply of gold."

[Carolus Rex]

Yes, but if the gold supply had been running out, it'd have been a gradual long-term process, a process Tywin would have had to deal with, and which everyone else would know about. Mines don't suddenly go from healthy capacity to nothing overnight, unless there's war, disaster, or Margaret Thatcher involved.

Haha! Made me laugh out. Now I gotta explain why I'm reading this at work...

As to the topic. I don't really know what to think of the gold mine is dry quote. Tywin has never ever seemed like a man who'd flat out lie about something to manipulate. Twist the truth, leave out important bits, or just do the "your this close to death"-stare, but not lying.

So either a big deviation from the books, or something they know that we don't.

[Dorne Sand]

When the Iron Bank starts to turn the tides against the Lannisters they all would have been shouting "why didn't Tywin pay them off with his endless supply of gold."

Because tywin could have stated it to cersei in the same dialogue. Saying that there is no way that the lannister family should pay the crown dept to the iron bank, that it will diminish them too much, that they need instead to restore order as soon as possible, build harvests and raise taxes and suffer all tyrels needs in order for them to participate in the debt issue. that even if he wanted too, the war has depleted their actual ressources, that stannis is in the field, that westerlands are at risk with the ironmen blocking the sea etc etc. then all cersei had to do, was keep that in mind and backlash at the banker when he will claim his due. No need of depleting the mines

[DrownedSnow]

Except that Tywin has already mentioned, more than once, that the Iron Bank shouldn't be messed with and that they will have their due. No explanation other than an inability to pay works because otherwise it makes Tywin an idiot and we've already seen he is too cunning for that. All of this comes from them bringing the Iron Bank stuff forward. In the books Tywin was making payments to the Iron Bank so it wasn't an issue. If he had to pay them off he would have, and probably should have, but he didn't expect to die and there is no way he could have known Cersei would do what she did. Since show Tywin looks to be the one creating the problem with the bank they have to give reason to it. It's actually really simple. I just hope this is not something that becomes a part of the books because it wouldn't make as much sense there as the damage is already done.

[Lord Varys]

This is clearly not foreshadowing a plot point in book series. The Lannisters are done anyway, they don't need to be broke, they have different problems in the books - bad leaders (Cersei), bad claims (Tommen, Myrcella), and they have alienated most/all of their allies. If GRRM hammered a fact home with the history of House Lannister (as far as know it yet) then that money is not everything. We know that Tytos sucked as a Lord, and there are other average/bad Lannister leaders. Lord Damon, who lost a battle during the Blackfyre Rebellion and hid under Casterly Rock, Lord Jason Lannister, who somehow got himself killed early on during the Dance of the Dragons, Ser Tyland Lannister, who did not exactly excel himself as Master of Ships (no navy) and who seemed to have done next to nothing as Master of Coin during the Dance.

This thing clearly is only in there to build up tension for Stannis' negotiations with the Iron Bank.

[Hielo y Fuego]

This is clearly not foreshadowing a plot point in book series.

This thing clearly is only in there to build up tension for Stannis' negotiations with the Iron Bank.

Not necessarily.

Ignoring the IB so rudely and blatantly was a big mistake on Cersei's part. That much is clear or else, GRRM wouldn't have bothered putting that scene in there.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Cersei fall at the hands of a FM at some point, courtesy of the Iron Bank of Braavos.