(Book spoilers) So the Lannister gold has dried up?

[Ser Desmond Wine's Bane]

Not necessarily.

Ignoring the IB so rudely and blatantly was a big mistake on Cersei's part. That much is clear or else, GRRM wouldn't have bothered putting that scene in there.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Cersei fall at the hands of a FM at some point, courtesy of the Iron Bank of Braavos.

If only the FM had someone in training who knew their way around KL reasonably well.

*Whistles nonchalantly*

[Hielo y Fuego]

If only the FM had someone in training who knew their way around KL reasonably well.

*Whistles nonchalantly*

Now, we wouldn't happen to know of anyone who fits that description, would we?

[DrownedSnow]

Now, we wouldn't happen to know of anyone who fits that description, would we?

The Waif, perhaps?

[Veltigar]

The show and are no longer close to being the same, it ended with this, and the Tyrells, you know the guys who produce nearly all the food goods which would require a lot of smallfolk thus producing a lot of soldiers, have the least amount of warriors.

When did they take their army away? I must have erased that particular fuck up out of my memory.

[Dorne Sand]

Except that Tywin has already mentioned, more than once, that the Iron Bank shouldn't be messed with and that they will have their due. No explanation other than an inability to pay works because otherwise it makes Tywin an idiot and we've already seen he is too cunning for that. All of this comes from them bringing the Iron Bank stuff forward. In the books Tywin was making payments to the Iron Bank so it wasn't an issue. If he had to pay them off he would have, and probably should have, but he didn't expect to die and there is no way he could have known Cersei would do what she did. Since show Tywin looks to be the one creating the problem with the bank they have to give reason to it. It's actually really simple. I just hope this is not something that becomes a part of the books because it wouldn't make as much sense there as the damage is already done.

It will have his due but not from the lannisters. And the show doesn't state how they will have their due, or the cunning of tywin to avoid the issue. Just that his is powerless. It would have worked better in my opinion if tywin stated that he will take a calculated risk, needing to stall the return of the debt compared to the actual threats composed of ironmen, stannis, endangering his house the war efforts conceded... He just have to say that the iron bank will have to wait as he has no choice

and let cersei do the botching after his death by adding her usual carelessness and lack diplomacy

It just seems so huge in implications compared to the problem the scenarists needed to solve such as a timing issue

[Cas Stark]

Can't we admit this was a poorly thought out and unnecessary change?

The problem with the IB wasn't that they couldn't pay the debt "Right Now" but that Cersei stopped making any payments at all, which is something Tywin wouldn't have done, gold or no gold. Nor is it believable that there has been no gold mined for 3 years and no one knows it or even suspects it.

[Hielo y Fuego]

The Waif, perhaps?

Only if she knows her way around KL better than say, Jaqen. You wouldn't want her to botch such an important job and end up getting caught, after all.

[Lord Varys]

I never said that the Iron Bank is not important for the plot in the books. Of course it is. I only meant that Tywin's stupid lines in the TV show are not foreshadowing the Lannisters being or becoming broke in the books as well as the TV show. That's not going to happen.

In fact, Kevan's death will put the Crown in a very difficult position because the enmity/rift between the Lannisters and the Tyrells will effectively prevent King Tommen from using his mother's coin to pay the Crown's debts. Kevan considered doing just that, but Mace as Lord Regent/Hand will not have access to the gold of Casterly Rock. Despite being very rich, I guess the wealth of House Tyrell cannot be moved or transformed as easily into coin/gold as the gold of Casterly Rock could be shipped to Braavos. The Tyrells will have revenues through various incomes, taxes, and such, but their coin should come mostly from the food they sell to other people.

If Mace ends up in control of the city/Crown but Cersei flees the city (with Tommen), Mace might face severe difficulties...

[The Kinkslayer]

For all the gold in Casterly Rock, I'd like the show to stop the Ironbank name dropping.

[Ser Desmond Wine's Bane]

For all the gold in Casterly Rock, I'd like the show to stop the Ironbank name dropping.

Drink for every time the IBB is mentioned! Its much more fun!

[Tixu Oty]

OK, so all I want to say is this: Is Cersei bipolar or what??

I mean, I don't mind the fact that the Lannisters mines no longer produce gold in the show, and let's ignore the fact that is has been so for three years and still nobody knows...

I'm going to side with those who say the purpose of that scene was to emphasize the facts that the alliance is important and that the Iron Bank is not to be messed with. I was really happy with all the Iron Bank namedrops since lots of us have predicted on these very boards that the Iron Bank and the Faceless Men will be big players in WoW. So yes, I'm glad to see they're not downplayed in the show, that looks good to me.

However, I do think the no more working mines thing was an unnecessary oversimplification.... sigh.

What I didn't get, though, was the fact that this speech came AFTER Cersei being all nice to Margaery. I mean stressing the importance of the alliance didn't seem so much needed if Cersei is already acting wise enough of her own free will. What is up with that? I mean some of you here have speculated that she's only sucking up to the Tyrells because of Tyrion's upcoming trial, but if that's the case, it really wasn't obvious at all. I mean to me, she seemed to genuinely accept, and even suggest the Tommen/Margaery wedding. Wow. Guys I admire your confidence, but I don't know.

Totally agree. Also, Cersei not being stupid and making alliance with Margaery? waat

I was blown away with the Cersei cozy up to Margeary. She hates her from the begginning. Also, her dissing on Joff like that. Joff was her pride and Joy, could do no wrong. The worse thing book Cersei ever says about Joff was that he was "willfull". Whitewashing of Cersei is quite dissapointing as she was just as evil as Joff.

Why does everybody take whatever Cersei says at face value? I mean, every word she says just screams "lie". She was as much sympathising with Margaery as she was being nice to Sansa in season 1. It's an act, a deliberate attempt to make Margaery say something that she can use to cast her down.

For some odd reason people feel she has gone soft this pass episode, but if you have seen her character and know who is you would know she is simply scheming to get others on her side for the trial and to sympathize. Its clear as day.

See, the thing is, I only started reading the books a year ago, after binge watching the first two seasons of GoT. And when I started reading Cersei's POV in Feast I was very surprised to see that she was so fucking crazy because the show had really not prepared me for that, and the first three books didn't really prove me wrong either. What's worse is that in Feast it seemed that she wasn't BECOMING crazy, she had basically always been that way, but was starting to unravel because power. OK, so I read Feast and Dance and accepted the fact that Cersei was no more than a crazy evil bitch. Alright. So I watched season 3 with that in mind and that went ok. Beginning of season 4 was even better at planting the seeds of reckless craziness. But now, now I'm lost. I don't care that show Cersei is different than book Cersei, I can live with that. My problem is that show Cersei seems to contradict herself. I mean she hated Margaery in season 3. She hated the idea of marrying Loras. And now that her son's dead she starts acting wise??? wtf?!

I agree, and it goes back to one of the worst moments in GOT's history with Xaro being broke...what the hell was that? They did it so quickly and so poorly to make sure nobody questioned it, but it was absurd. Seemed like a disney ending. Hope they don't go that route for the Lannisters.

I was cool with that. It seemed to work nicely with Varys's power is a shadow thing. I thought it was a nice trick, though I do miss book Xaro.

I just thought of something about this. I was under the impression that the Iron Bank wanted to get its due from the coffers of Casterly Rock (and Highgarden, the Twins, and other Houses that supported Tommen, I guess, but mostly Casterly Rock), but now that the Lannisters are broke how will the IB get back its gold? Like, why fund someone to beat an enemy who's broke?

For one, even if they never get their money back, it sends a message. Also, it is implied that the Iron Bank can be really ruthless and find whatever way to get its due, though it's not important at this point how and doesn't need to come to that.

Second, in the book, Stannis is lent money only on the condition that he agrees to repay all the crown's debt in addition to his own. Clearly Stannis has no choice but to accept. And we all know how Stannis is. He'd find a way to get that money. Unlike Kevan, he probably wouldn't care to much if the people are not happy because of taxes.

[salmonsnake]

No one thinks Marg was being sincere in that scene. Why would Cersei be? I thought the 'sister' thing made this clear.

[Chebyshov]

No one thinks Marg was being sincere in that scene. Why would Cersei be? I thought the 'sister' thing made this clear.

Lena's acting was brilliant in this scene. Marg is obviously testing her (especially being told if she calls Cersei "sister" again, she'll be strangled in her sleep), and Cersei is sucking it up to secure votes. You can tell how much Cersei doesn't want to say what she does just before she says "he'll need help."

I mean come on, look at this: https://31.media.tumblr.com/08ebf8380ce00b012168c030d0bdacf9/tumblr_n536b6Og8Y1sluj84o3_500.gif

[Tixu Oty]

I only watched it once, but I think the sister thing came from Marg, right? We assume Marg is insincere because we've seen her plotting her future wedding to Tommen in a couple scenes already. But for Cersei it's coming out of nowhere.

[Chebyshov]

I only watched it once, but I think the sister thing came from Marg, right? We assume Marg is insincere because we've seen her plotting her future wedding to Tommen in a couple scenes already. But for Cersei it's coming out of nowhere.

Let me direct you to: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/109204-book-spoilers-cersei-the-judicial-manipulator-appreciation-thread/

[Cas Stark]

Lena's acting was brilliant in this scene. Marg is obviously testing her (especially being told if she calls Cersei "sister" again, she'll be strangled in her sleep), and Cersei is sucking it up to secure votes. You can tell how much Cersei doesn't want to say what she does just before she says "he'll need help."

I mean come on, look at this: https://31.media.tumblr.com/08ebf8380ce00b012168c030d0bdacf9/tumblr_n536b6Og8Y1sluj84o3_500.gif

That's true, but as someone else said...they were sowing the seeds of her going completely off the rails earlier in the season..and now all of a sudden..she's gone totally strategic thinker out of nowhere...so, if anyone is paying attention..it's inconsistent.

[Chebyshov]

That's true, but as someone else said...they were sowing the seeds of her going completely off the rails earlier in the season..and now all of a sudden..she's gone totally strategic thinker out of nowhere...so, if anyone is paying attention..it's inconsistent.

I think she may have just been sober. Book!Cersei doesn't completely go nuts until post-Tywin's death. I do see what you're saying though; cool calculation is quite a jump for her.

[Hard Hugh]

I always got the impression in the books that the Lannisters remained greatly wealthy, while the crown itself was broke. Separate entities. Like as if a rich person was the owner of a bankrupt company, or vice versa.

Yes this is how I always took it from the books. Not a huge fan of this change.

[Cas Stark]

I think she may have just been sober. Book!Cersei doesn't completely go nuts until post-Tywin's death. I do see what you're saying though; cool calculation is quite a jump for her.

I don't hugely object to the Marg scene, but it's out of character for Book and TV Cersei...TV Cersei is actually more likely to make overt threats than Book Cersei..but then I hated the line about her having Marg strangled to begin with...because neither Book nor TV Cersei would have done that with her father still alive. Oh well.

I do expect Lena to kill it as Cersei begins to totally lose it and give in to all of her crazy paranoid fantasies.

I much more object to the Lannister mines being out of gold for 3 years, that is stupid and unnecessary.

[Hielo y Fuego]

I don't hugely object to the Marg scene, but it's out of character for Book and TV Cersei...

I think she was just playing Margaery. This is Cersei, after all. She may not be the smartest player of the GoT (and certainly not the sanest) but she isn't that stupid either.