(Book spoilers) So the Lannister gold has dried up?

[acosta]

I don't get why so many people are saying the Lannisters are "broke." They still own all the gold they've mined for the last however many thousand years and didn't spend, a whole lot of productive land and all of the tariffs and taxes of their bannermen and peasantry, plus the debt the crown owes them. They haven't themselves been borrowing from the Iron Bank. They're still a major creditor, probably the biggest creditor on Westeros.

Having the mines run dry just means they need to restructure their business operations and plan a different wealth maintenance strategy for the future, one that does not involve spending huge sums of money, going to war with other wealthy families, and definitely not one that involves paying other people's debts, though they probably still have the ability. I'm sure they're still in the black more than the crown is in the red.

[The brown snake]

I think this means that the debt to the iron bank will be mentioned more and more. And the wedding to the Tyrells is so important because the Lannisters may be wanting to stash their gold away for the next thousand years as they will be unable to be 'the most powerful house' in a thousand years as they do not have any more gold.

The Tryells land is still green moist and fertile... The old lion might be wanting them to pay the bank.

[SynthFG]

I don't get why so many people are saying the Lannisters are "broke." They still own all the gold they've mined for the last however many thousand years and didn't spend, a whole lot of productive land and all of the tariffs and taxes of their bannermen and peasantry, plus the debt the crown owes them. They haven't themselves been borrowing from the Iron Bank. They're still a major creditor, probably the biggest creditor on Westeros.

Having the mines run dry just means they need to restructure their business operations and plan a different wealth maintenance strategy for the future, one that does not involve spending huge sums of money, going to war with other wealthy families, and definitely not one that involves paying other people's debts, though they probably still have the ability. I'm sure they're still in the black more than the crown is in the red.

You'd be very wrong here,

I don't see Tywin or any of his predecessors as a Scrooge McDuck type character with a large gold vault they go swimming in.

The money has been spent over the years, either on Improving Casterly Rock, buying influence or general preening.

A wise ruler like Tywin knows that gold sitting in a vault doesn't grow, whereas investing wisely can see it multiply

Tywin was obviously lending significant money to the Iron Throne in order to buy influence and what contingency reserves he was keeping would have been spent on the war.

Whilst he's still in theory rich, with most of his wealth tied up in loans to the crown and with his tax base in the Westlands devastated he has a liquidity problem

One of the reasons he's so keen to get control of KL and the finances (and probably why he made Tyrion master of coin) is that he needs the crown to start repaying some of its debts

[Tixu Oty]

I wonder if we'll get to know who replaces Tyrion as Master of Coins?

[Cold Crashing Waves]

Seems to be more endgame foreshadowing than anything else.

[Juan_Snow]

I for one didn't take what Tywin said to mean that the Lannisters are broke. The active mines are simply dry. That doesn't mean they don't have gold. It's quite possible they still have plenty of gold. They just aren't stockpiling gold like they once did, so they can't afford to pay the Crown's debts any longer. It also doesn't mean they won't find another mine, or continue to collect on the loans they've made.

[ChrisSnow77]

Exactly. I mean, I suppose they went to one another, "Well, why didn't Tywin just buy the crown out of debt?" Because in the book he actively refuses to cancel the crown's debts to him, but I think that's obviously because he isn't going to cripple the Lannisters by erasing debt while everyone else gets to hold the crown's debts to them; it makes the Lannisters relatively weaker compared to the rest, and that's never going to happen.

So maybe they went, "Well, why doesn't Cersei cancel the debt, at least?" And... probably because she loves being Lady of Casterly Rock and isn't going to weaken herself relative to the other debt holders, either. Better to weaken them by telling them to fuck off or to take stuff she's very happy to give in return for debt forgiveness. But no, that's too significant a pettiness to allow to stand.

I could, of course, be wrong. But there's obviously been a pattern from day 1 with their treatment of Cersei of filing down the rough edges, so to speak, and this conveniently seems to fit that pattern.

I think you make a great point... it seems like the last few episodes they've tried really hard to make Cersei to be a more sympathetic character than the books did, and this is yet another piece towards that.

[trgryn-strk-lnstr-mrtell]

I think you make a great point... it seems like the last few episodes they've tried really hard to make Cersei to be a more sympathetic character than the books did, and this is yet another piece towards that.

i wouldn't agree...all of my unsullied friends clearly saw through her "emotional" scenes as clear manipulations, infact some reacted with even greater dislike that she would use her dead sons atrocities to win margery and her daughter to win oberyn

Plus i've shared my other views here - http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/109201-book-spoilers-so-the-lannister-gold-has-dried-up/?p=5749785

[Ankou]

Tyrion could tell you there's one Lannister mine that didn't run out.

[Ankou]

Accidental double post I seek forgiveness!

[Gabriel Belmont the Dragon]

So the lannisters are broke thats a surprise but when you think about the wars, the mass spending during king roberts reign it kinda falls into place my guess Tywin might a emergency gold stash somewhere in case of this. he is right though about paying the iron bank back

[Lord Varys]

As we are discussing Cersei in this thread now, can anyone explain to me if this non-Cersei-character has any other character trait than being a mother who loves her children - or, rather, who is supposed to love her children, because that's what she's repeating in every episode in every scene since that very dreadful 'black-haired boy scene'. Does she wants power? Does she want to rule, either in her own name, or as power behind the throne? If so, why was she appalled by the murdering of Robert's children if she was the one who arranged Robert's assassination (she did that in the show, didn't she?)?

I really don't understand her character. Not because she is not book Cersei, I'm really trying to understand TV Cersei as an independent character, but I'm not sure what's supposed what's driving her.

Book Cersei is a very simple character, whereas D&D's Cersei seems to be a completely blank character.

As to the debt thing:

House Lannister earns money by not forgiving the crown's debts. And three million gold dragons (possibly somewhat more after the War of the Five Kings) is really a lot of money, I'd think.

But it's entirely likely that Cersei did not insist that the Crown pay its monthly sum to Casterly Rock. She would have decided that all by himself, since she was Queen Regent and Lady of Casterly Rock in one person (just as Tywin was Hand of the King and Lord of Casterly Rock). But this would not really help the Crown if it's still in need of money - which it is, especially since Cersei starts to build new, expensive ships -, as the North, the Riverlands, the Vale, the Iron Islands, the Stormlands, and the Reach should have paid pretty much no taxes throughout most of the war. Dorne most likely pays little anyway, since they are by far the most independent kingdom. Actual war costs were pretty low for KL, since the Iron Throne did neither hire nor pay most of the men fighting in the Realm, but with such a shortage of incomes there would be literally no money left for the rebuilding afterwards...

[trgryn-strk-lnstr-mrtell]

As we are discussing Cersei in this thread now, can anyone explain to me if this non-Cersei-character has any other character trait than being a mother who loves her children - or, rather, who is supposed to love her children, because that's what she's repeating in every episode in every scene since that very dreadful 'black-haired boy scene'. Does she wants power? Does she want to rule, either in her own name, or as power behind the throne? If so, why was she appalled by the murdering of Robert's children if she was the one who arranged Robert's assassination (she did that in the show, didn't she?)?

I really don't understand her character. Not because she is not book Cersei, I'm really trying to understand TV Cersei as an independent character, but I'm not sure what's supposed what's driving her.

Book Cersei is a very simple character, whereas D&D's Cersei seems to be a completely blank character.

you know what this calls for.....season 1 to 4 marathon! :commie:

[Lord Varys]

Well, perhaps I made my point no clear enough:

TV Cersei is a completely erratic character. What's the point of her bonding time with Margaery in last week's episode if their last conversation ended with 'If you call me sister again, I'll have you strangled in your sleep'. I honestly don't get it.

It's the same with Tyrion-Cersei. Cersei loathes her brother because he has killed their mother at his birth, that has been established in season 2. But if that's the case, why the hell does Cersei spend her leisure time with Tyrion in season 3 after he has threatened to turn her joy to ashes in her mouth? They even bond over the whole forced/arranged marriage issue. She repeatedly visits him, talks to him, even drinks with him. I know that Lena and Peter are very good friends in real life, and this shows in their scenes together - there is just no real enmity/loathing between these two characters.

And is there a hidden agenda? Does she even want power? Or did she just kill Robert because Ned threatened her life, Jaime's life, and the life of her children by telling her that he would tell Robert? TV Cersei never made a real grasp for power. She did not delight in presiding over the Small Council or calling the shots in KL. She was only afraid. Afraid of Joffrey, afraid of Tyrion, afraid of Stannis.

I try to understand the characters as D&D-characters now. They created them, they changed them to fit their vision - surely they have some sort of concept for each character.

[Fat Trell]

TV-Cersei's hobbies seem to include talking about how much she loves her children and the tortured role of wives/mothers. She wants be left alone with her children, but she doesn't want to spend much time with them apparently. She's a fan of rape-play incestual sex too. Also wine.

Seriously she comes off as a depressed women who loves her children and is utterly miserable with her lot in life. She doesn't seem to have much personal ambition..

[NewJeffCT]

From the books, I always had the impression that the Lannisters were still pretty rich and were still taking in money, and not just because the crown owes them 3 million+

Didn't Tyrion have them make a rather large amount of steel weapons & armor for the clans of the Vale so they could better harass Lysa and her bannermen? That doesn't seem like something a kingdom that is running out of money would do in hopes it pays off a year or two or five down the road, and also not something where you'd be relying on the crown to pay you back regularly. Plus, even back then, Tywin didn't love Tyrion, so wouldn't have been using his meager savings on a costly up front suggestion Tyrion had made, especially since he may not have trusted that Tyrion could control these clans.

[sifth]

Exactly. I mean, I suppose they went to one another, "Well, why didn't Tywin just buy the crown out of debt?" Because in the book he actively refuses to cancel the crown's debts to him, but I think that's obviously because he isn't going to cripple the Lannisters by erasing debt while everyone else gets to hold the crown's debts to them; it makes the Lannisters relatively weaker compared to the rest, and that's never going to happen.

So maybe they went, "Well, why doesn't Cersei cancel the debt, at least?" And... probably because she loves being Lady of Casterly Rock and isn't going to weaken herself relative to the other debt holders, either. Better to weaken them by telling them to fuck off or to take stuff she's very happy to give in return for debt forgiveness. But no, that's too significant a pettiness to allow to stand.

I could, of course, be wrong. But there's obviously been a pattern from day 1 with their treatment of Cersei of filing down the rough edges, so to speak, and this conveniently seems to fit that pattern.

But not paying the Iron Bank always seemed silly, especially for a smart character like Tywin. Surely he at least would of known how dangerous they were, so why not at least pay off that portion of the debt using Lannister gold. I mean the last thing House Lannister needed was another enemy. For a guy that rich it should be just a drop in the bucket or close to it.

[Fat Trell]

But not paying the Iron Bank always seemed silly, especially for a smart character like Tywin. Surely he at least would of known how dangerous they were, so why not at least pay off that portion of the debt using Lannister gold. I mean the last thing House Lannister needed was another enemy. For a guy that rich it should be just a drop in the bucket or close to it.

The debt isn't a problem until Cersei makes it one. The Iron Bank doesn't require immediate payment of all money owed. They're a bank, they're more than content to receive smaller payments at an interest. They just need steady payment as an assurance that they will get paid in full eventually.

Tywin most likely understood that while he could ignore collections on debt owed to himself, the faith, and the Tyrells for a time; keeping up with payments to the IB was crucial to prevent them becoming involved with either Stannis or Dany. The Crown would have had the money to keep paying the bank without Cersei's frivolities and a competent Master of Coin.

I doubt the IB would have taken such extreme action or approached Tywin in the same way they did Cersei either.

[Lord Varys]

The show really sucks because they suddenly make the Iron Bank the party the Crown owes the most amount of money, when in fact it is only one of many parties the Iron Throne is indebted to. It owes lots of money to Casterly Rock, Highgarden, and the Faith as well, and Cersei actually succeeds in canceling the 900,000 and somewhat gold dragons the Crown owes to the Faith, in exchange for revoking Maegor's laws.

From a story-wise perspective it's just stupid to introduce the Iron Bank story now, if they make them appear as if the Lannisters cannot afford to pay the Crown's debts. How the hell is Stannis supposed to pay Robert's, Joffrey's, Tommen's, and his own debts after he ascended the Iron Throne? Surely his plan in the books is to eventually attain House Lannister and use its wealth to give the Iron Bank its due. But he cannot do that in the show, can he?

Stannis could have had something better to do, if they had given him a much better story in season 3-4. Say, by introducing Selyse, Shireen, the Florents and the pyres at the beginning of the story, adding the negotiations between Stannis' new Hand and Lord Tywin behind Stannis' back, having some 'bonding time' with Gendry, Shireen, and Stannis, and ending the Dragonstone story with the leeches and Stannis' ominous declaration that 'one is not three', but that he will sacrifice Gendry if all the kings should die as prophesied.

Then there would no need for Stannis to go to Braavos in season 4, keeping the Iron Bank plot line for a later time.

Alternatively, it could have worked if a representative of the Iron Bank were present during Joff's wedding whose demands were later largely ignored/overheard due to the crisis after the king's death. We still have no idea what the fuck is going on between Tywin and the Iron Bank. Has he stopped the payment, as Cersei does later in the books, or has nothing of this sort happened yet? If so, what's the point in the necessary alliance with the Tyrells if they still alienate the Iron Bank by not using Tyrell money to pay the bank. And if they are still fulfilling the contract with the Iron Bank, Stannis should have no chance whatsoever to get a loan from the bank.

[Domonju]

I know this is off topic somewhat, but what resources do the Starks have? I always wondered how they made do in the middle of the North where it's always cold.