Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Mr Smith

(Book spoilers) So the Lannister gold has dried up?

Recommended Posts

I know this is off topic somewhat, but what resources do the Starks have? I always wondered how they made do in the middle of the North where it's always cold.

- Wood. They have the largest forest in the Seven Kingdoms. And yet no shipbuilding industry.

- Some agriculture (otherwise there's no point in The Gift)

- The Manderly Silver mines.

- Fish.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Probably not much resources in terms of trade and amassment of wealth, but crops grow there---perhaps different than, say, in the Reach, but adequate nonetheless. I also imagine the forests are full of game, the seas are rich with fish: keep in mind that Starks hold, or held rather, an enormous area of land stretching from the Wall to the Neck, and the loyalty of their vassals was of great magnitude. (Great distances and harsher conditions introduce a lack of scheming and intrigue, combined with the millenia-spanning legacy of the Starks as kings in the North). And overall, the land isn't utterly wretched and austere, it's simply Taiga, not the type of permafrost that lies beyond the Wall.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

According to Littlefinger in season 2 of the TV show, the Starks are the second most powerful house in troops after the Lannisters - which is of course nonsense in the books, but it that they are really very powerful in the show.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Cool. So it seems Starks have a nice stranglehold on renewable resources. Not only are they uber-cool but they're eco-friendly. :cool4:


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, perhaps I made my point no clear enough:

TV Cersei is a completely erratic character. What's the point of her bonding time with Margaery in last week's episode if their last conversation ended with 'If you call me sister again, I'll have you strangled in your sleep'. I honestly don't get it.

It's the same with Tyrion-Cersei. Cersei loathes her brother because he has killed their mother at his birth, that has been established in season 2. But if that's the case, why the hell does Cersei spend her leisure time with Tyrion in season 3 after he has threatened to turn her joy to ashes in her mouth? They even bond over the whole forced/arranged marriage issue. She repeatedly visits him, talks to him, even drinks with him. I know that Lena and Peter are very good friends in real life, and this shows in their scenes together - there is just no real enmity/loathing between these two characters.

And is there a hidden agenda? Does she even want power? Or did she just kill Robert because Ned threatened her life, Jaime's life, and the life of her children by telling her that he would tell Robert? TV Cersei never made a real grasp for power. She did not delight in presiding over the Small Council or calling the shots in KL. She was only afraid. Afraid of Joffrey, afraid of Tyrion, afraid of Stannis.

I try to understand the characters as D&D-characters now. They created them, they changed them to fit their vision - surely they have some sort of concept for each character.

i'll try to address your points best I can...

Regarding Cersei/Margery, that attempt at "bonding" was clearly a farce...it was her pathetic attempt at trying to win the Tyrell's (by proxy of Margery) vote in the trial against Tyrion. I will grant you that it does technically make more sense for her to go straight to Mace, but in the show it would have been extremely odd to suddenly give him some real on-screen time...if you watch it again, you will notice Margery's clear suspicion on her face...and the sister comment, just watch Margery's evil smirk while she says it and the way she checks Cersei's expression as she doesnt...i would say this is very on par with Cersei's character so far at believing she's the best manipulator and is capable of moulding anyone to do her bidding, directly or indirectly hence having her every whim/wish fulfilled ( i would say its her power/lust for power)

Tyrion/Cersei...i would say there is extreme loathing/distrust between them...if you remember beginning of S2 when he arrives as hand of the king, horrible fights...despite everything, she does know he's cunning....so a lot of those scenes I remember seem to be Cersei battling her wits against Tyrion and trying to outsmart him (when she believes she captured Shae) which again I would say is again a power/ego trip..if you recall, she threatens him as well when Myrcella is being shipped off...something on the lines of "i hope you truly care about someone someday so i can take them away from you"...tyrion still hung out with her...

i think it was more a case of "keep your friends close and your enemies closer", they both met frequently to try to uncover each others plots and outsmart each other...now S3, do you remember Cersei's smug expression when tywin told him he has to marry sansa? Clearly the expression of someone who hated tyrion and firmly believes that she's outsmarted him again...then the other shoe falls and she realizes that her scheming backfired (you see the build up for the future here dont you?)...i will agree that book!cersei and book!tyrion would never have that bonding moment they did "which one of the 4 of us are more fukd?" i have no defense for that scene, only thing is that if you found that scene out of character for cersei, then same should be thought of tyrion as well...

i do believe that all she wants is power, do you recall the scene with LF? demonstrating her power just for the heck of it...show!cersei's motivations for killing robert seem to be a combination of her fear of robert finding out about her kids being jaime's bastards but ned did offer her the chance to flee, she threw it back in his face and decided to stay and kill the king, indicating a very strong lust of power. After jofferey is crowned, she does lord about for a short while till tyrion shows up, then she's distracted battling her wits against his...also, when she hits jofferey, he did manage to threaten her in a very creepy and effective manner...in her discussions with Tywin in S3 and S4 so far she seems to talking about how she deserves her daddy's respect and trust and so forth...while some unsullied might misunderstand that as just a girl trying to win her daddy's affection and attention, most that i've spoken to seem to think that she's under the impression that if she can win over Tywin, she's gona have a hell of a lot of weight/power to throw around...

so i guess im trying to say that show!cersei's motivations appear to be a strong lust for power and to be the queen bee, but she's quite easily distracted and definitely not as smart as she thinks she is...

this is all just IMO...one thing that your are probably aware off is that Lena Headly hasn't read the books at all...she goes by completely on the script and her interpretation and ofcourse discussions with D&D....

if you feel you got a different vibe from her, i would love to hear it...i'm planning another marathon 2-3 weeks after this season is over, i'll definitely try to watch for any points you bring up :cheers:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

meh, I don't see this as a major change. It brings the importance of the Tyrells and Iron Bank more into focus for the tv audience.
I don't see it changing Cersei's actions that much. The Crown should be servicing its debts out of its tax income, not out of Lannister mines. The crown should be getting taxes in from all seven kingdoms and from trade by merchants in and out of Westeros.
Cersei refusing to pay the Iron Bank should not be anything to do with Lannister's being broke or not. The Crown should be able to pay the Iron Bank regardless.

If in future it turns out that the Lannisters need to have lots of gold for some reason then they could always find a new rich vein of gold.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

- Wood. They have the largest forest in the Seven Kingdoms. And yet no shipbuilding industry.

This is likely due to the Greyjoys. White Harbor is relatively new and Ironborn raids only recent stopped (before starting again).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is likely due to the Greyjoys. White Harbor is relatively new and Ironborn raids only recent stopped (before starting again).

Even more reason to build ships. With a decent navy you can stop the Ironborn before they arrive.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Even more reason to build ships. With a decent navy you can stop the Ironborn before they arrive.

They stopped building ships because a former King Brandon Stark went all crazy and destroyed all the ships.

I'm not sure how long that was before Aegon's Landing, but presumably the North never got around to building a naval culture again, and have survived on the political ties they held with the navies of the Night's Watch, the Vale, the rebuilt Iron Islands (before their recent craziness) and the Seven Kingdoms as a whole.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There was no need of the Lannister's mines drying up nonsense.



First of all why would the Lannisters pay for the Baratheon debts by themselves? Robert mismanagement created much of this debt without Tywin's consent. The Lannisters may have simply delegated the problem to the Iron bank instead of fueling an unreasonable debt all by themselves. Once Joffrey was made king Tywin hoped that he would be able to pay the iron bank by putting the weight on every region. Unfortunately he didn't anticipated this civil war.



The Tyrells are needed irrespectively on whether the Lannisters need their wealth or not.



1- The Tyrells has one of the biggest forces in Westeros. May we not forget that half of the Lannister forces was wiped up by Robb (when he captured Jaime)


2- They have borders with the Crownlands and the Westerlands which makes them very dangerous an unpredictable enemies to mess around


3- You may not notice but small folk do not eat gold. Just before the Tyrells reached Kingslanding the place was on the brink of revolt as food became scarce. The food basket of the 7 kingdoms sorted that issue out almost immediately.



Cersei marriage with Loras made sense. The Tyrells were already stronger then the Lannisters at that point and were seeking ways (ex Sansa's marriage with Willas) to augment such power to a point where the Lannisters had no chance of ever catching up. With Tywin being old, half his army wiped out and no true heir with his brilliance on the horizon it was only fair for him to make as many ties with the Tyrells as possible.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Even more reason to build ships. With a decent navy you can stop the Ironborn before they arrive.

That could have been said about the coast of England during the Viking raids too it just doesn't seem that easy in actual practice. Ship building was/is a very skilled trade. Once the skill was lost in the north then they would have needed to basically outsource for builders. This would further complicated restoring a standing Navy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×