Craster's: The Definition of Filler

[Frey Pies]

Those Craster' scenes was good for the show and a way to come back too the book's original plot that DD was messing really bad.

They weren't messing it up- they knew exactly what they were doing. I'm really happy with the way it turned out :) The last few minutes had a feel good vibe going on, something that is extremely rare in Game of Thrones.

[I'll pay the iron price]

Jon (as good as he is) not being able to defeat Karl one on one showed just why Rast and the others were so afraid of him (Karl).

[boojam]

And both dire wolves are present and their owners are threatened and they do not show up. They do nothing? What? Nothing? Did the CGI cost too much?

Yeah I expected both Summer and Ghost to get into the melee , and where the heck was Summer?

[Rockroi]

Responding to the argument that the scenes last night served some-sort of purpose:

BUt before I begin I just want to ask people if they like Clam Chowder? What do you like about it. For me- call me silly- but I like the actual clams, and not the filler of the potatoes.

Keep that in mind.

Contrary to what was said in the OP, this served several purposes.

1. It established Jon's growing role as a leader and a fighter. This is an important thread to develop because of the vote that will happen this season, and they don't intend to show TWO battles at the Wall as happened it the books: that would not work for the show. There will be a single battle for the Wall, so Jon's leadership role needed to be established another way.

You can do all of this without including Bran. Jon’s attack on Craster’s – while certainly having the odor of contrivance – can be explained by saying that if those men get captured they may reveal the NW true strength and they are deserters. So, using it as a “character builder” for Jon works, but no need to include the time-sync that is Bran.

2. It reaffirmed that Jon has a certain level of respect for the opinions of both women and wildlings. He asked the women what they wanted and let them do what they would.

We already knew all that- if being tethered to Ygritte etc for an entire season didn't convince you that he respects wildings and women, nothing will. We don’t need it to be reinforced because we don’t have the time. Further, you could have accomplished all this by having a scene between Jon and Gilly at the Wall; 5 minutes- done. No need to waste two episodes.

3. Craster's Keep is slowly setting up the role of the woman who is clearly the leader of Craster's wives. I suspect she will end up being the Woods Witch who leads the Wildlings to Hardhome. This is likely an important factor in Winds of Winter and needs to be established somehow. Watch the scenes involving that woman, and then remember Hardhome.

Don’t care. The fact that they are laying back-story to a 4^th-level character does not interest me. Here’s an idea – why not lay the back-story of the PRIMARY characters instead?! You know like Ned and Jaime and Tyrion- characters we actually NEED to know something about and not a character who… is actually not a character. The show does not have the luxury of that kind of time.

Which is why I have a problem with it and why the OP is correct- it was filler. Like eating clam chowder- you can tell if its good or not after the first bite; if you taste mostly potatoes – the filler- you know you are eating cheap stuff. But get mostly clams? That's what you paid for!

I paid for Tyrion; for Brienne; Dany, Jaime, Tywin, Stannis, Arya, Sansa, Jon (they made me do it) and not the "woman-who-we-sort-of-heard-about-for-like-4-total-paragraphs-in-book-five." I can do without that; THAT is the potatoes. The fact that there is a REASON for potatoes or the fact that some people may like potatoes does not change the fact that its filler. I paid for the clams, thanks.

4. It showed for the first time what Hodor is capable of when Bran wargs him, and also how confusing and upsetting it is for Hodor when he is warged. This will also be important.

Again, you could have done that in an independent scene, with Bran making Hodor do something and Hodor not liking it; it could even have been killing somebody. You don’t need to send Bran on a magical collision-course with Jon Snow in the “Magnetic-Zone” that is CRaster’s Keep that just attracts every major character in the books. Fuck, I’m surprised we didn't find Stannis and Khal Drogo up there.

5. It allowed Bran to stay part of the story without simply showing him in endless boring scenes traveling North

.

I got bad news for you: Bran’s story IS an endlessly boring travel up North. That’s what that is. You send somebody up North don’t expect that to be a “page-turner.” And even if its boring, its better than Gerrymandering a system where two characters can kinda-sorta-but-not-really connect. Another bait-and-switch. We don’t need that.

What we need is well developed story-arcs tethered to the foundation of the underlying narrative; not silly sidetracks and … potatoes.

6. It gave Jon a means to reunite with Ghost.

Again, have Ghost show up at the Wall like it was in the books. I don’t know anyone who was sitting on the edge of their seats trying to figure out the complexities of …. Of … having a wolf… go… South. Wow. You don’t need an ultra-silly and convoluted set-up just to get Ghost back with Jon. And… why was Ghost there to begin with? Oh, that’s right- potatoes.

That’s all that was; an excuse to have the show serve us potatoes and hope we forget about the clams.

Filler. Convoluted, empty, unfulfilling and contrived.

[Cold Crashing Waves]

Blah blah blah. Get over it. They were good scenes.

[aFeastForDragons]

Jon (as good as he is) not being able to defeat Karl one on one showed just why Rast and the others were so afraid of him (Karl).

Yep. It showed that for all his training with Winterfell's master of arms he still wasn't a match for an experienced street fighter. If Jon wants to win he will have to stop being so honourable. Nice little bit of forshadowing there.

[Arkash]

Okay, as much as I would have love Locke to stay around, it didnt seem filer to me : the main point of it all was to show Jon as a competent leader and it worked !

[1000AcresAndAHoldfast]

it will happen a lot more, the narrative from the books gets even more disjointed in a feast for crows so they are going to need a lot of filler if they want to keep bran in the picture, tbh i dont really know why they have to, I wouldnt mind if Bran disappeared for a few episodes, i dont really rate the lad as an actor at all. Anyone who has read the books will know that by the end of ADWD he has only just reached the three-eyed crow and had his early initiations, but it looks like that will have happened by the end of this season.

[Bayard]

At Craster's we see Jon beginning to undertake his role as a leader, his kindness and respect to the wives and their decision to live free, the implications of Bran's warging, the importance of why he needs to keep going North, Jojen's visions, Jon reuniting with Ghost, and Jeor Mormont avenged.

I'm sorry but I can't agree, what exactly did they show us? Jon, losing half of his men in his first role as a leader of the Night's Watch. In any battle, in any time in history, that would be considered a huge defeat. He had the element of surprise, he was fighting men completely unprepared, drunk and yet what does he do? he attacks screaming like a mad man :). Sure, that could have been a good decision, panic could work for them, help them win the fight... but it didn't. Even more so, they had that badly coreographed battle inside with Jon losing badly to some King's Lander trained on the streets with some knives. They've put this idea forward many times, especially with Bronn, that honor kills you, and so on. Right, as if the master of arms doesn't prepare young lords for that, for facing commoners on a battle field. Anyway rant over.

Rockroi, did I ever tell you how much I love your opinions? :))

[HMR]

Woah, woah, hold your horses. A dude got stabbed through the mouth. Nuff said.

[Winterfell's Revenge]

Can someone tell me why Lcke wouldn't just slit their throats when they were all tied up? Seemed a bit cartoon villainish... "I'm here to kill you, but first I must delay and take you over here by which you may devise a way to thwart me."

I assumed that since he found the boys separated, he thought he needed to keep Bran alive long enough to find out where Rickon was as well. That's all I could come up with. *shrugs*

[boojam]

Responding to the argument that the scenes last night served some-sort of purpose:

BUt before I begin I just want to ask people if they like Clam Chowder? What do you like about it. For me- call me silly- but I like the actual clams, and not the filler of the potatoes.

Keep that in mind.

Gee I like both the clams and the potatoes!

[Cas Stark]

Woah, woah, hold your horses. A dude got stabbed through the mouth. Nuff said.

That was really bad, I thought for a second I was watching a slasher flick.

[Hippocras]

@Rockroi,

So....basically your argument is that the information that was communicated in this sequence should have been split up into several different scenes. This means you simply fail yo acknowledge the severe constraints, particularly in terms of of run-time, that the show has. They NEED to compress things together and communicate as much development as possible in as few scenes as possible. Your argument requires adding another 3 episodes just to accommodate the scenes you think should have happened instead.

The time it would take to show a preliminary wildling attack on the wall for the same purpose of establishing Jon as a battle commander would have been about the same, but would not have advanced Bran's story or the Hardhome story simultaneously.

As for Hardhome and the Woods Witch.....seriously? You don't care? That's your argument? You do realize that the events at Hardhome are quite a big deal in Jon's future story right? Probably in Bran's story as well.

[Tquinn BC]

What we got:

1. Time for Jon to become a leader in the eyes of the Watch

2. Filler, yes Filler for Bran. I'm not going to watch Bran march around in the snow for a season. This was just fine.

3. Another close Stark reunion, but failure at the end

4. Jojen prophecy

5. Solid acting from scary as fuck Karl

Wasn't that bad of a change. Films and books are different.

[igrewupinKL]

The women at the end of the show became more heroic to me than anyone else in the series up to this point. They had been beaten and raped for most of their lives, 'walking on eggshells' so to speak, without having choice or input in any part of their existence. For the first time in their lives they are given a chance to decide their own fate. It spoke volumes to me. They'd rather face the White Walkers and whatever other monsters there were out there having made the choice to do so, than allowing another man (boy or no) decide what was going to keep them 'safe'.

Nicely put. I appreciated this as well

To op, I actually liked the 'filler' it created suspense and heartbreak for the fact that bran will never see jon again. it reunited jon with ghost and provided a reason for his absence..

and also created an opportunity to have insight into jojen's seer abilities.

plus we got carl tanner from gin alley, and what happens to crasters sons

so overall, not pointless

[NaarioDaharis]

I'm sorry but I can't agree, what exactly did they show us? Jon, losing half of his men in his first role as a leader of the Night's Watch. In any battle, in any time in history, that would be considered a huge defeat. He had the element of surprise, he was fighting men completely unprepared, drunk and yet what does he do? he attacks screaming like a mad man :). Sure, that could have been a good decision, panic could work for them, help them win the fight... but it didn't. Even more so, they had that badly coreographed battle inside with Jon losing badly to some King's Lander trained on the streets with some knives. They've put this idea forward many times, especially with Bronn, that honor kills you, and so on. Right, as if the master of arms doesn't prepare young lords for that, for facing commoners on a battle field. Anyway rant over.

Rockroi, did I ever tell you how much I love your opinions? :))

This.

OK, so I'm not the only one who thinks that Jon's fight scenes are really clunky and fake looking?

Also, we do not need to see Bran so many times. If nothing is happening with him, don't show him. Stannis hasn't been around for a while. Theon hasn't, the Boltons haven't. Because they're not relevant.

Even the Viper has missed an episode and he only has 3 more. I would have liked to spend some more time with the Viper. Maybe mention that he is called the Viper, since they haven't yet. Maybe show something about the Viper that actually occurred in the books. How about those cool convos with Tyrion? They're probably coming up.

Yea, some people can be entertained and distracted by swords and fire. "I like the part where Jon fought with the sword, because swords are cool and Jon is a good guy and he fights with a sword and kills bad guys with a sword with a wolf's head on the handle because Jon is a really good fighter. I like swords. Then he set Craster's keep on fire because Craster's was a place of evil where he raped his daughters, raping is bad and so setting fire to it was a good thing and makes Jon a good guy because he burned a place of evil with fire. His is the Song of Ice and Fire... and swords. I like the part where the swords were fighting each other. That was cool. It was like *clang* *clang* then Jon stabbed him. And Grenn stabbed a guy too. And Edd. They all stabbed guys but no one stabbed them because they were better. Jon got stabbed, but he was ok because he is good and good guys can get stabbed in the belly and be ok. Especially if its Jon, because he has curly hair and likes wildlings. He forgot he got stabbed in the stomach and stabbed Karl in the face with his sword with the wolf's head because Karl was bad and about to hurt that lady. Jon saved the day and forgot about the hole in his stomach. Jon doesn't bleed because his is the blood of the first men and wolves. Wolves are animals and are kind of like dogs and that makes them good guys."

Bran also forced a mentally retarded fellow to brutally snap another person's neck, traumatizing him for life and then felt no remorse over it. What a noble and heroic sacrifice Bran made for the good of himself. This made Bran seem like a true hero. Honestly, though, this actor plays Bran so pompously. I want somebody to hit Bran. He is such a dick to everyone.

[AnotherCrannogman]

I liked the fight scene and thought Karl was pretty flat and over-acted.

[Ankou]

When there are literally thousands of pages of source material to draw from (and now presumably the thousand or so WOW pages that could fall into the show at any moment) to even be discussing a plot line that spans over multiple episodes as filler, is a failure on the writers part, in my opinion.

They can add filler and do it well (which they have as far as entertainment value goes) but that is entirely separate from whether or not it was good for the overall story. All signs point to no on that front.

Not if they're pacing it and have to worry about keeping characters involved. They can't use 20 pages of cake descriptions involving characters nobody knows to maintain viewer interest.

[Gail]

Umm... because Jon and especially Bran are already in ADWD territory, while the others are still in SOS. :dunno:

Jon and Dany are unsullied faves that's why they're giving them more screentime.