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Angalin

Small questions v.10080

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I have a few thoughts and I wonder if they can be tied together. 1. Whats' dead can never die. The Iron born motto, but it seams to describe the Other's wights. 2. Snarks--Starks. I take it that Snarks are some fearful creature from the north.Any chance our Starks evolved from them. On all sides there are people being brought back from death, some seam to be independent thinkers, others not so much, but I think it may become a bigger part of the story, either as a new beginning for all, or an end.


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I have a few thoughts and I wonder if they can be tied together. 1. Whats' dead can never die. The Iron born motto, but it seams to describe the Other's wights. 2. Snarks--Starks. I take it that Snarks are some fearful creature from the north.Any chance our Starks evolved from them. On all sides there are people being brought back from death, some seam to be independent thinkers, others not so much, but I think it may become a bigger part of the story, either as a new beginning for all, or an end.

I don't believe Starks are descended from snarks. Next question...

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If Jon were to die but then be resurrected, would he still be bound by his NW vows?


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If Jon were to die but then be resurrected, would he still be bound by his NW vows?

Not a small question. You'll find several differing opinions expressed in at least a few threads on the topic.

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If Jon were to die but then be resurrected, would he still be bound by his NW vows?

Not a small question. You'll find several differing opinions expressed in at least a few threads on the topic.

:agree: The vow thing will never be a small question, to many what ifs.

@Oberoth if you copy and paste the following into google it's pretty much all threads about Jon's vows:

Vows site:asoiaf.westeros.org

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What's this story of how House Clegane was started? The Kennel guy saved Tytos Lannister from a lion?

That's the one.

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I think that somewhere in a Jaime chapter Jaime thinks about Aerys sending a raven to Casterly Rock to ask Tywin to become the hand of the King, but there was no reply, freaking Aerys out even more. In the Kevan epilogue of Dance with Dragons, Kevan mentions that he had expected a letter of that sort to arrive after the battle of the Bells, but one never did.

Do you think that Tywin got the letter, but decided for his own reasons not to respond and kept its arrival a secret even from his closest advisors? Or do you think that an archer or a storm or an hawk brought the raven down along the way?

To venture into crackpot territory: it seems as if a message that important would require two ravens, and although Grand Maester Pycelle is rather disloyal to anyone but Tywin the Great, at this point in the war the Targaryens still have a decent chance, and Pycelle wouldn't see it necessary to lie about sending the letter. But what about Varys? We know that Pycelle is scared of him, maybe he blackmailed him not to send the letter, to ensure the downfall of the Targaryens for his own reasons.

To go so deep into the land of the crackpots that one can never find one's way into rationality again, maybe Bloodraven warged the raven and diverted it from its destination, because Bloodraven needs the Targaryens to die in order to save the human race or destroy it or something, it depends on which crackpot for his motivations you subscribe to.

Sorry about the length and incoherent nature of this post, as well as putting it in this thread. It started off as a small question but quickly grew into a much bigger one as I started to think about it.

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IIRC, the novels don't mention exactly where the lion came from, just that Tytos was saved by Sandor and Gregor's randfather, who slew a lioness and lost a leg and three dogs in the process (three dogs on a yellow field is their sigil.) House Clegane was born from this.



I don't think it says in the text where they were but I imagine it happening near the Tooth, or perhaps farther west. I guess it depends on if it happened during a hunt from the Rock or during longer travel...I'm guessing a hunt, and the yellow field must be indicative of the type of terrain they were in (plains of Westerlands?)


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IIRC, the novels don't mention exactly where the lion came from, just that Tytos was saved by Sandor and Gregor's randfather, who slew a lioness and lost a leg and three dogs in the process (three dogs on a yellow field is their sigil.) House Clegane was born from this.

I guess a lion that was kept a Casterly Rock.

Maybe it escaped or something.

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IIRC, Tywin did keep his own counsel and was waiting to see if the Baratheon forces would be large and effective enough to overthrow the Targaryens. IIRC, after the Trident Tywin and his host marched on Kings Landing without sending word. I also seem to remember mention of several birds being sent to Casterly Rock.



I'm not entirely sure about Kevan's comment...I can see how Tywin would sit the fence more carefully (considering the risk of treason and the possible ruin of his House if he chose wrong) in this than perhaps any other matter, which may explain why Kevan was not made aware of his intentions: his intent was to bide his time and join the winning side late, a la The Late Lord Frey.


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Yeah, it's a little weird cuz I don't remember lions being mentioned (lizard-lions only) in Westeros, outside the Lannisters themselves...Many Houses take their sigils from beasts from their neck of the woods though, so I expect that their were lions at some time in the Westerlands, if not still. Strictly based on the text, it would seem that an escaped lioness may make more sense than one chanced upon during a hunt, though that would've been pretty ironic for the Lord of Lannister to be killed by a lioness, of all things. :lol: Wonder what Tyrion would've made of that!?!


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Yeah, it's a little weird cuz I don't remember lions being mentioned (lizard-lions only) in Westeros, outside the Lannisters themselves...Many Houses take their sigils from beasts from their neck of the woods though, so I expect that their were lions at some time in the Westerlands, if not still. Strictly based on the text, it would seem that an escaped lioness may make more sense than one chanced upon during a hunt, though that would've been pretty ironic for the Lord of Lannister to be killed by a lioness, of all things. :lol: Wonder what Tyrion would've made of that!?!

There used to be the Great Lions of the Western Hills (Bran III, A Dance with Dragons) and there are lions in the menageries of Pentos. Cersei claims there was an old lion kept caged in the caverns veneath the Rock when she and Jamie were children (Cersei I, A Dance with Dragons). It appears that lions are, as of the time of the novels, extinct in the wilds of Westeros, but still exist in captivity. At the time of the founding of House Clegane, there is a chance (and it appears quite likely given the stories) lions still lived in the wild

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I think that somewhere in a Jaime chapter Jaime thinks about Aerys sending a raven to Casterly Rock to ask Tywin to become the hand of the King, but there was no reply, freaking Aerys out even more. In the Kevan epilogue of Dance with Dragons, Kevan mentions that he had expected a letter of that sort to arrive after the battle of the Bells, but one never did.

Do you think that Tywin got the letter, but decided for his own reasons not to respond and kept its arrival a secret even from his closest advisors? Or do you think that an archer or a storm or an hawk brought the raven down along the way?

To venture into crackpot territory: it seems as if a message that important would require two ravens, and although Grand Maester Pycelle is rather disloyal to anyone but Tywin the Great, at this point in the war the Targaryens still have a decent chance, and Pycelle wouldn't see it necessary to lie about sending the letter. But what about Varys? We know that Pycelle is scared of him, maybe he blackmailed him not to send the letter, to ensure the downfall of the Targaryens for his own reasons.

To go so deep into the land of the crackpots that one can never find one's way into rationality again, maybe Bloodraven warged the raven and diverted it from its destination, because Bloodraven needs the Targaryens to die in order to save the human race or destroy it or something, it depends on which crackpot for his motivations you subscribe to.

Sorry about the length and incoherent nature of this post, as well as putting it in this thread. It started off as a small question but quickly grew into a much bigger one as I started to think about it.

I don't think it was ever specifically stated that Aerys asked Tywin to be his Hand again. Rhaegar convinced Aerys to swallow his pride and ask Tywin for help, according to the books, but Tywin did not send a reply. Combined with Kevans statement, it doesn't seem like Aerys asked Tywin to be Hand again.

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In the 2nd D&E book Bloodraven is referred to as "Lord" Bloodraven ,In the 3rd hes called "Lord Rivers". Two questions Which is correct ?


And what is Bloodraven the Lord of exactly, Is it just a courtesy because he is the Hotk?


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In the "nd D&E book Bloodraven is referred to as "Lord" Bloodraven ,In the £rd hes called "Lord Rivers". Two questions Which is correct ?

And what is Bloodraven the Lord of exactly, Is it just a courtwsy because he is the Hotk?

His true name is Brynden Rivers, so the title Lord (Brynden) Rivers is the official one. Being Hand of the King makes you the Lord Hand, and thus a Lord (but not necessarily with a keep, like Varys). Bloodraven is his nickname, and so, people call him Lord Bloodraven behind his back (I doubt they call his that to his face though).

So Lord Rivers is his official title, though the use of Lord Bloodraven is not all wrong either.

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Just to add to what RT said, in the Sworn Sword, GRRM seems to be painting us a picture of this seemingly sinister character, yet The Mystery Knight comes out and shows us someone wholly different from what the smallfolk say. It's just a way of showing that what characters in the stories think about someone is not always a perfect representation of who(or what) that person really is. :)


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Just to add to what RT said, in the Sworn Sword, GRRM seems to be painting us a picture of this seemingly sinister character, yet The Mystery Knight comes out and shows us someone wholly different from what the smallfolk say. It's just a way of showing that what characters in the stories think about someone is not always a perfect representation of who(or what) that person really is. :)

And in the asoiaf-present time stories, an example of stories about people's nature, and the actual nature of those people, are the rumours about Daenerys (which, for as far as we read in her POVs, totally not true :P )

The stories told about Bloodraven seem to be the same kind of stories, fitting in with the situation in the Seven Kingdoms from that moment.

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