[Book Spoilers] Forel vs. Trant debate

[kiasyd]

So, the show added another tidbit of fan service: The good old Syrio Forel vs. Meryn Trant debate! I was surprised to see that they kept it for quite some screen time and threw most arguments seen in forums until now!

What do you guys think? Personally this just confirms my own theory on the this matter: Syrio Forel unfinished demise was particularly devised by GRRM as a provocation to readers. :rolleyes:

Any thoughts or comments?

[Banner Without Brothers]

Aww does that mean he's not waiting in Bravos for Arya?

Thing I didn't understand about that scene, his last. Was why he didn't pick up one of the metal swords. He had time. But since the first sword of Bravos doesn't run and Meryn Trant is alive it wasn't too much of a mystery. Unless Trant ran I suppose.

[Stone Cold Bastard]

I don't think Syrio would have been able to grab a real sword - Trant, the creep, probably would've stabbed him.

Speaking of which, I can't wait to see Meryn Trant get his just deserts. Such a scumbag.

[Ser Pigeon Pie]

The only thing I think which disproves this theory is that Meryn Trant is still kicking it in KL without any indication of losing a battle to a guy with a wooden sword! Unless of course......... ;)

[Twenty of House Goodmen]

Syrio is most definitely dead. Trant in the books isn't a joke(though he's no warrior of renown either), and the show made it pretty clear that all the skill Syrio had couldn't save him from superior arms and armor.

[MyLittleFinger]

Ser Meryn Trant has proven to be the best Kingsguard since The White Bull. Never balks at doing the royal families bidding, keeps all their secrets with staunch loyalty and is adept at harming unarmed people with maximum impact.

[iknownothingjonsnow]

This thread deserves a massive: WTF????

How do we know any more now than we did before? We witnessed a conversation between a girl who ran away before anything happened and a guy who'd never heard of Syrio.

For the record, the sounds that we heard during the showdown were metal hitting the ground followed by screams coming form multiple sources. If the show is hinting at anything it's that Syrio disarmed Trant and issued further punishment on his cohorts.

But again, that's what we knew back in S1, and at the moment we have exactly zero new information.

[ToTheWolves]

The only thing I think which disproves this theory is that Meryn Trant is still kicking it in KL without any indication of losing a battle to a guy with a wooden sword! Unless of course......... ;)

*MINDBLOWN* lol

[kiasyd]

Two points:

• The "first sword of Braavos doesn't run" conundrum is easily resolved: Syrio isn't the first sword anymore - just a moment before the Lannister guards appears he teaches Arya by calling "left" and striking "right".
  
• The Hound scornfully dismisses Trant as a lousy fighter - this info is new: so far in the books we haven't seen anyone show this kind of contempt for Trant... Jaime displayed some contempt but not like this.
  

Again, I defend the point I always had: Syrio's fate was left unresolved purposefully.

[Colonel Green]

Syrio is dead. No other interpretation really makes sense, particularly any version of the story where Syrio is a Faceless Man, because among other things that means Syrio was never real to begin with.

[Bowen]

Yep they put that to bed for good I reckon,quite right too.

[Twenty of House Goodmen]

Two points:

• The Hound scornfully dismisses Trant as a lousy fighter - this info is new: so far in the books we haven't seen anyone show this kind of contempt for Trant... Jaime displayed some contempt but not like this.

In the show only. Jaime in AFFC described Meryn as an adequate fighter, which would put him on par with the likes of Ned Stark in terms of fighting ability.

[Annara Snow]

Syrio is dead. No other interpretation really makes sense, particularly any version of the story where Syrio is a Faceless Man, because among other things that means Syrio was never real to begin with.

Yeah, especially one where Meryn Trant is actually Syrio, in which Syrio is, therefore, a massive douche and a toadie who beats up little girls and does everything Joffrey tells him to, and doesn't even feel bad about it or try to not hit Sansa too hard, like Arys Oakheart.

[NightStark]

Yeah, especially one where Meryn Trant is actually Syrio, in which Syrio is, therefore, a massive douche and a toadie who beats up little girls and does everything Joffrey tells him to, and doesn't even feel bad about it or try to not hit Sansa too hard, like Arys Oakheart.

Well if he had warg-faced Trant he would have had to act out the character. He couldn't suddenly become Ned Stark in Trant's skin or people would notice.

[Colonel Green]

Well if he had warg-faced Trant he would have had to act out the character. He couldn't suddenly become Ned Stark in Trant's skin or people would notice.

Well yeah, but that just goes back to why would you want Syrio to "survive" only to become a completely different character with traits diametrically opposed to Syrio's?

[NightStark]

Well yeah, but that just goes back to why would you want Syrio to "survive" only to become a completely different character with traits diametrically opposed to Syrio's?

I'm not saying he did or anything, just that FM have to maintain the host's mannerisms etc. to be believable as I'm sure you know already.

[kiasyd]

Guys, the focus here is about the intended provocation from GRRM & the show production as fan-service. :laugh:

I agree that the Syrio-faceless man theory is terrible; on the other hand I do think that other kinds of simple resolutions are feasible: Syrio dodges and shots for a double-leg takedown, grabs a Lannister half-helm from the ground, knocks Trant unconscious for one minute, and prances out through the door.

But my original point is not "Syrio is alive": My original point is that Syrio's fate is undetermined in order for GRRM and the show production have some fun with the fans. :stunned:

[lostinwesteros]

I can't cite exact words, but I remember reading somewhere on the forum that when Martin was asked about Syrio, he kind of shrugged and said something like 'One man without armor and only a wooden sword against 5 men in armor with steel swords . . . He's human . . . what do you think?' That's not firsthand, just what I remember reading a year or two ago.

Because of that, it just seems unlikely that they'd waste any screen time trying to get fans all worked up when there's so much else going on that deserves attention. Arya had already mentioned Syrio the last time she talked with Jaquen H'gar, and in this past episode it gave a nice context to her water dancing out by the river, but I think if anything it prepares the way for Arya to depart for Bravos.

If there's to be a tease for the fans, I'd say a more pertinent and realistic one is speculation about what happened to Benjen Stark.

[Mad Monkey]

Guys, the focus here is about the intended provocation from GRRM & the show production as fan-service. :laugh:

I agree that the Syrio-faceless man theory is terrible; on the other hand I do think that other kinds of simple resolutions are feasible: Syrio dodges and shots for a double-leg takedown, grabs a Lannister half-helm from the ground, knocks Trant unconscious for one minute, and prances out through the door.

But my original point is not "Syrio is alive": My original point is that Syrio's fate is undetermined in order for GRRM and the show production have some fun with the fans. :stunned:

I don't think that was intentional though. I think George just didn't realize at first what would happen every time he fails to include an explicit detail in the text about a character's fate. If someone disappears and is presumed dead, but no body is ever found, then not only will they still be alive, they will also turn out to be every other character in disguise at some point in the story. Now that the Syrio theories have exploded, it's easy to make toy with them now in retrospect.

[kiasyd]

I don't think that was intentional though. I think George just didn't realize at first what would happen every time he fails to include an explicit detail in the text about a character's fate. If someone disappears and is presumed dead, but no body is ever found, then not only will they still be alive, they will also turn out to be every other character in disguise at some point in the story. Now that the Syrio theories have exploded, it's easy to make toy with them now in retrospect.

Oh, I agree. I think GRRM left it open just for the chapter's narrative impact and now is coasting in the hype... Like that Forel character mentioned in Mercy's chapter.