[Book Spoilers] Missing Character

[Carcetti]

Yeah I mean i understand why they cut charachters like Patchface, Coldhands, strong Belwas, Mormont's raven and Daario's Beard, but I stil believe the show would have benefitted from these comical individuals.

Also, it makes me more and more afraid that they're not gonna include Stoneheart, which would be a miss if there ever was one.

[Yojimbo]

I had a feeling they where going to axe Coldhands, when the show underplayed the whole subplot behind the red comet. The Other's mythos is going to get scraped in the show, they're simply going to be the "omg kill them all with fire!" badguys, hence why Dany and Tyrion are being white-washed because they're going to be the "saviors of westeros". Because at this point, the book's are not going to be finished before the show and the vast majority of the show audience wouldn't get or care for the idea that maybe the whitewalkers aren't the biggest threat to westeros. This is why am not in the camp of "OMG THE SHOW IS SPOILING THE BOOKS", the show and the books in my opinian are going two seperate ways.

[StrollofShame]

^^Not sure how the Others Mythos has been scrapped..the show has now officially shown us more about the Others than the books have so far.

My predictions are NO Coldhands, NO fArya, & NO Penny...definitely LS, definitely Aegon & definitely Manderly.

[Yojimbo]

^^Not sure how the Others Mythos has been scrapped..the show has now officially shown us more about the Others than the books have so far.

My predictions are NO Coldhands, NO fArya, & NO Penny...definitely LS, definitely Aegon & definitely Manderly.

Because that was the moment for me at least in the books when Coldhand was introduced I thought, "WOW maybe the Others are not what they seem, in fact what could the Others be for then? Maybe to defend the realm from something even more destructive? Like fire breathing flying lizards? All the show has shown as is, undead ice zombies turn babies into undead ice zombies. Better hope Dany gets her arse out of Mereen soon to save Westeros's babies.............

[acosta]

Because that was the moment for me at least in the books when Coldhand was introduced I thought, "WOW maybe the Others are not what they seem, in fact what could the Others be for then? Maybe to defend the realm from something even more destructive? Like fire breathing flying lizards? All the show has shown as is, undead ice zombies turn babies into undead ice zombies. Better hope Dany gets her arse out of Mereen soon to save Westeros's babies.............

That's just your read, though, not part of the actual Others mythos. We have no idea whether or not Coldhands is in any way associated with them. He expands the mythos of the universe in general, showing it's possible for an undead human to be something other than a mindless zombie under the thrall of an ice demon, which I figured was important at the time, but who knows? It's entirely possible the books never explain who or what he is. It's also possible that does matter but the show will just introduce the idea in another way. It's hard to believe they'll cut it completely if it's actually important.

[voodooqueen126]

I wouldn't be surprised if the show becomes increasingly unhinged from the books. Not only are the show's departures from the books increasingly major, but the producers don't seem to be concerned about the virtually 100% certainty that the show will hit its allotted 7 seasons before the 7th book is finished.

Remember GRRM is a TV guy - he knows all about the way you change written material to fit it into a TV show. I'll bet he has in mind an alternate ending that would work for TV and that won't spoil the book ending at all. That's my prediction, anyway.

Even if I'm wrong about that, though, just because X happens in the show doesn't mean Y won't happen in the books. I definitely wouldn't rule out Coldhands playing a major role in the books just because he doesn't appear in the show (assuming he doesn't). (Personally, I always saw him as a bit part guy, but I could be wrong about that.)

I really hope you are right. Because I hate the show.

[StrollofShame]

I could be wrong, but I was certainly under the impression that Coldhands is a Wight, & not an Other. In which case, I'm not sure I understand how his nature might make anyone assume much of anything about the Others, except that he probably became a Wight due to them. My feeling was that he was "recreated" as an intelligent Wight by Bloodraven, in some manner we know nothing about...yet. If anything, maybe the question should be, what is the direction/motivation of Bloodraven & the Children, when you consider Coldhands?

If you think that all we learned from the show about the Others is that they make OTHER Others from babies, & that we weren't shown the possibility of them being much, much more (such as having organization & hierarchy, & performing complicated ritual/magic), then I guess I saw that scene entirely differently.

[Yojimbo]

That's just your read, though, not part of the actual Others mythos. We have no idea whether or not Coldhands is in any way associated with them. He expands the mythos of the universe in general, showing it's possible for an undead human to be something other than a mindless zombie under the thrall of an ice demon, which I figured was important at the time, but who knows? It's entirely possible the books never explain who or what he is. It's also possible that does matter but the show will just introduce the idea in another way. It's hard to believe they'll cut it completely if it's actually important.

And your completely right, it is after all just my interpretation. One am not even sure myself if I think is 100% correct but I just can't shake the feeling Coldhands still has a part to play in the story. I can also see your point that you have a hard time believeing they would cut something out of the story if it was actually important. But I myself have even a harder time believeing George would allow the show to give spoilers/hint to which direction the remaining books are going, because the show is going to be finished by a good few years before the remaining books are. After all what book to film transalation has ever been 100% faithful?

I could be wrong, but I was certainly under the impression that Coldhands is a Wight, & not an Other. In which case, I'm not sure I understand how his nature might make anyone assume much of anything about the Others, except that he probably became a Wight due to them. My feeling was that he was "recreated" as an intelligent Wight by Bloodraven, in some manner we know nothing about...yet. If anything, maybe the question should be, what is the direction/motivation of Bloodraven & the Children, when you consider Coldhands?

If you think that all we learned from the show about the Others is that they make OTHER Others from babies, & that we weren't shown the possibility of them being much, much more (such as having organization & hierarchy, & performing complicated ritual/magic), then I guess I saw that scene entirely differently.

From what been described he has the simularties of a Wight, but he has black eyes not the pale blue like other Wights. And I agree with your questions about Bloodraven & the Children. But this is where I have a hard time buying into that the show is giving us infomation about the Others before the books, I honestly can't see any author allowing some one else to divulge into infomation that he or she has not brought up him/herself. Do you really think the show is going to tell us the end of the story of a song and ice fire before george does? Or do you think it more likely the show and the books are going to seperate more and more as the series goes on? Because after all it going to be only 7 seasons, and am not in the camp who believes the books are going to be finished before the show.

[StrollofShame]

^^Are you thinking then that GRRM will tell the showrunners NOTHING about future storylines, or tell them to "wing it" on their own after ADWD? Because he doesn't want his proprietary storylines used, as they are for his purposes in finishing the books only?

Or do you think he might mislead them, & make the last books completely original or different to the show?

Lots of bookreaders believe the show is "winging it" enough already. I would think GRRM has enough love & respect for how his work is being portrayed to be straight up with the showrunners. The show will continue to deviate from the books as they feel necessary, & I am certain to be disappointed in SOME directions the show takes, but I would lose all interest in GRRM as an author if the books turn out to have a decidedly different outcome compared to the show.

I'm just one person whose likes or dislikes are of relatively little importance, but I'd sure hate to discover GRRM misled the showrunners regarding his epic story--especially in light of the fact that he COULD have had the books done by now!

[acosta]

And your completely right, it is after all just my interpretation. One am not even sure myself if I think is 100% correct but I just can't shake the feeling Coldhands still has a part to play in the story. I can also see your point that you have a hard time believeing they would cut something out of the story if it was actually important. But I myself have even a harder time believeing George would allow the show to give spoilers/hint to which direction the remaining books are going, because the show is going to be finished by a good few years before the remaining books are. After all what book to film transalation has ever been 100% faithful?

Normally, I'd agree with that, but I was under the impression he has explicitly said he gave them the ending with the intention they use it. I mean, if he dies and we never find out what was supposed to happen, I'll resurrect him and kill him again. He'll be 75 if it takes as long to write 6 and 7 as he took to write 4 and 5. There aren't very many 350 pound 75 year-olds walking the earth.

[acosta]

If you think that all we learned from the show about the Others is that they make OTHER Others from babies, & that we weren't shown the possibility of them being much, much more (such as having organization & hierarchy, & performing complicated ritual/magic), then I guess I saw that scene entirely differently.

Yeah, I thought this was an important reveal, too. These aren't just some mindless force of nature ice demons in thrall to the devil. They have a social hierarchy and rituals of their own and exist for reasons other than just to kill humans.

[Yojimbo]

^^Are you thinking then that GRRM will tell the showrunners NOTHING about future storylines, or tell them to "wing it" on their own after ADWD? Because he doesn't want his proprietary storylines used, as they are for his purposes in finishing the books only?

Or do you think he might mislead them, & make the last books completely original or different to the show?

Lots of bookreaders believe the show is "winging it" enough already. I would think GRRM has enough love & respect for how his work is being portrayed to be straight up with the showrunners. The show will continue to deviate from the books as they feel necessary, & I am certain to be disappointed in SOME directions the show takes, but I would lose all interest in GRRM as an author if the books turn out to have a decidedly different outcome compared to the show.

I'm just one person whose likes or dislikes are of relatively little importance, but I'd sure hate to discover GRRM misled the showrunners regarding his epic story--especially in light of the fact that he COULD have had the books done by now!

Ok, say (god forbid) George lose's his mind and jump off the deep end, and in his next two(?) books reveals Drogon has killed ever character in the story so far who are alive, puts on a top hat and sits on the Iron Throne and proclaim's himself First of His Name, King of the Andals and the First Men, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms, and Protector of the Realm. Do you think HBO are going to show us that? Of course not.

But if George has given the show all the major plot points of the story, why the hell is it taking him so long to write it? Because writing is organic, what George may have thought was a great idea at the time, he may change his mind when it been written down, he also may have other ideas while writting and think "wow I've just got to add this to the story now." I don't think (thankfully) George has some rare disease which only allows him to write so many words per day before he shuts down and can only type again when his battery has recharged.

But then again the show could finish, the books have not, and George can say "Well the show pretty much covered what I was going to write, so thanks for all the fish kids am out of here" Making him the greatest troll the world has or will ever see again...............

Normally, I'd agree with that, but I was under the impression he has explicitly said he gave them the ending with the intention they use it. I mean, if he dies and we never find out what was supposed to happen, I'll resurrect him and kill him again. He'll be 75 if it takes as long to write 6 and 7 as he took to write 4 and 5. There aren't very many 350 pound 75 year-olds walking the earth.

This is the only risk as book readers we are taking (I hope), George could possible die before he is done. I hope of course this is not how it will turn out, but look at Steven King, he almost never finished the Dark Castle saga (among other future works) because he got knock over by a car, which in turn lit a fire under his arse to get cracking on with his books. But then again look at Robert Jordan and Frank Herbert, sadly we will never get to see how their versions would ever be.

[StrollofShame]

Writers do often say the characters tell their own stories after a while, no matter what you as a writer may have intended at the start. I am sure GRRM will flesh out action & dialog (and characterization) in his remaining books in ways the showrunners couldn't begin to detail...as a bookreader, I know this will be true & I look forward to it. But the bones of the story will be the same. The resolutions will be the same. It would be a huge disservice to his own story to do otherwise.

Not saying the utterly bizarre is impossible. But I believe he has enough self-respect to avoid this type of sensation.

[Yojimbo]

Writers do often say the characters tell their own stories after a while, no matter what you as a writer may have intended at the start. I am sure GRRM will flesh out action & dialog (and characterization) in his remaining books in ways the showrunners couldn't begin to detail...as a bookreader, I know this will be true & I look forward to it. But the bones of the story will be the same. The resolutions will be the same. It would be a huge disservice to his own story to do otherwise.

Not saying the utterly bizarre is impossible. But I believe he has enough self-respect to avoid this type of sensation.

Of course and at the same time not have one ounce of respect for the fans of the books (not the show) who have been waiting years for the books to be finished, to have a show tell us how the books are going to be finished? If that was the case I wouldn't mind George being up front about it, because imo that the hallmarks of a man who doesn't give two shits about his work if he would let another person finish his work before he does.

[SynthFG]

Truth is we haven't needed Coldhands this series, and in truth he would have complicated the revised Bran Arc,

Plenty of time to introduce him either at the end of this season, or next if he's going to be important in the future,

[Carcetti]

Even if George has told D&D the broad strokes, and the faiths of the major characters, he couldn't possibly have told them all the context it happens in, simply because he probably doesn't know it that precisely himself. I think the endings for the major characters will be the same in the show as in the books, but the way how for example Jon learns about his mother and defeats the others (or whatever his end is), is most likely unknown to the showrunners. This is also the reason I don't care as much about the show spoiling the books because there will be so much more left to tell in the books which the show hasn't touched on.

[Theda Baratheon]

Because that was the moment for me at least in the books when Coldhand was introduced I thought, "WOW maybe the Others are not what they seem, in fact what could the Others be for then? Maybe to defend the realm from something even more destructive? Like fire breathing flying lizards? All the show has shown as is, undead ice zombies turn babies into undead ice zombies. Better hope Dany gets her arse out of Mereen soon to save Westeros's babies.............

what about that very nice subtle detail in earlier season of others artfully arranging corpses into a symbol, that doesnt scream mindless zombies to me...

[Theda Baratheon]

I did love CH though and am majorly pissed off that hes apparantly been cut, I just dont agree that theyre portraying the others as mindless ice zombies who are obviously evil, they dont come across that way to me, theyre much more interesting.

[DaughterOfThe9Moons]

Of course and at the same time not have one ounce of respect for the fans of the books (not the show) who have been waiting years for the books to be finished, to have a show tell us how the books are going to be finished? If that was the case I wouldn't mind George being up front about it, because imo that the hallmarks of a man who doesn't give two shits about his work if he would let another person finish his work before he does.

I think that's a bit harsh. From what the impression I get, GRRM really doesn't want the show to overtake the books.

I think that is reflected in the release of the Mercy TWoW chapter which coincided with the Season 4 début. Even though only a small portion of the chapter was incorporated into the show I think he wanted the fans to see it his way before they saw it in the show.

I honestly think that he really intends to have the books out before the show overtakes them and the threat of this may just be the catalyst he needs to get a move on. I'm not saying it will all work out in the end only that I think that's what he is working towards.

[Yojimbo]

I think that's a bit harsh. From what the impression I get, GRRM really doesn't want the show to overtake the books

I use to have that impression aswell, but it now 2014. The show is running for 7 seasons, so it will be finished in 2017. We have yet to even have confirmation that tWoW is coming out in 2015, this is pure spectulation from fans and wishful thinking. (which I hope they are right) but even if it does come out next year, George will not be writing aDoS till at least 2016, because he will be going around the world promoting his book, as he did with aDwD, which will also be expected of him by his publisher. So if he starts aDoS in 2016, he going to compelte his final book in one whole year? I really think that ship has long ago sailed away.

And yes I made a very harsh comment, but that only if it goes that way (which I really can't see happening and really do have more faith in George than that) then imo, it would rightly be deserved

.

Take this for example;

The Red Wedding, imagine now the show, showed us that before the books. Exactly the same way it was done in the show, then a year or two later George gives it to us in the books, exactly the same way he written it in aSoS. Are people really saying you wouldn't feel cheated by that? Even though imo the events leading up to the Red Wedding and the Red Wedding itself are better in the books than the show, I would still feel massively disappointed. Because the show has already left the cat out bag, the fact that we already knew that Robb and Cat are going to die would massivly diminish that whole plot point from the books. Whats more if the show finish's before the books it would not just be the "Red Wedding" ruined, it would be ever major running plot in aSoIaF diminished..........................it would be the biggest slap in the face to book readers ever! Hense am finding it more likley the show and the books are going in two different directions.