[Book Spoilers] Missing Character

[DaughterOfThe9Moons]

I use to have that impression aswell, but it now 2014. The show is running for 7 seasons, so it will be finished in 2017. We have yet to even have confirmation that tWoW is coming out in 2015, this is pure spectulation from fans and wishful thinking. (which I hope they are right) but even if it does come out next year, George will not be writing aDoS till at least 2016, because he will be going around the world promoting his book, as he did with aDwD, which will also be expected of him by his publisher. So if he starts aDoS in 2016, he going to compelte his final book in one whole year? I really think that ship has long ago sailed away.

I get the feeling that a lot of the final book has already been written so he will be, as it were, filling in the gaps which will take far less time than writing a book from scratch (optimism born of desperation?). The reason I believe AFFC & ADwD took so long is because he had to completely restructure everything to make up for the lack of the 5 year gap. With that being said, if he doesn't begin ADoS until 2016, I do agree with you that it is extremely difficult to believe that he will be able to finish and publish it within a year. I guess it all depends on when TWoW is published but it doesn't seem as though it is going to be this year and the longer it takes the more likely it is that the show is going to overtake the books.

The Red Wedding, imagine now the show, showed us that before the books. Exactly the same way it was done in the show, then a year or two later George gives it to us in the books, exactly the same way he written it in aSoS. Are people really saying you wouldn't feel cheated by that? Even though imo the events leading up to the Red Wedding and the Red Wedding itself are better in the books than the show, I would still feel massively disappointed. Because the show has already left the cat out bag, the fact that we already knew that Robb and Cat are going to die would massivly diminish that whole plot point from the books. Whats more if the show finish's before the books it would not just be the "Red Wedding" ruined, it would be ever major running plot in aSoIaF diminished..........................it would be the biggest slap in the face to book readers ever! Hense am finding it more likley the show and the books are going in two different directions.

Yeah, I would definitely feel cheated if I were spoilered by the TV show but I don't know whether I would want the show to diverge from the books completely because then it wouldn't even be the same story, just some weird breed of author sanctioned fanfiction. I think that would ruin the TV series for me. The reason I like it is because it is based on the books I love. It's a tough call. I guess we will see how it plays out.

[BoxCarRacer1478]

I use to have that impression aswell, but it now 2014. The show is running for 7 seasons, so it will be finished in 2017. We have yet to even have confirmation that tWoW is coming out in 2015, this is pure spectulation from fans and wishful thinking. (which I hope they are right) but even if it does come out next year, George will not be writing aDoS till at least 2016, because he will be going around the world promoting his book, as he did with aDwD, which will also be expected of him by his publisher. So if he starts aDoS in 2016, he going to compelte his final book in one whole year? I really think that ship has long ago sailed away.

And yes I made a very harsh comment, but that only if it goes that way (which I really can't see happening and really do have more faith in George than that) then imo, it would rightly be deserved

.

Take this for example;

The Red Wedding, imagine now the show, showed us that before the books. Exactly the same way it was done in the show, then a year or two later George gives it to us in the books, exactly the same way he written it in aSoS. Are people really saying you wouldn't feel cheated by that? Even though imo the events leading up to the Red Wedding and the Red Wedding itself are better in the books than the show, I would still feel massively disappointed. Because the show has already left the cat out bag, the fact that we already knew that Robb and Cat are going to die would massivly diminish that whole plot point from the books. Whats more if the show finish's before the books it would not just be the "Red Wedding" ruined, it would be ever major running plot in aSoIaF diminished..........................it would be the biggest slap in the face to book readers ever! Hense am finding it more likley the show and the books are going in two different directions.

I thought the show was going to be 8 seasons

1 for bk1

1 for bk2

2 for bk3

2 for bk 4&bk 5

1 for bk 7

1 for bk 8

[Colonel Green]

I thought the show was going to be 8 seasons

They've been saying 7 or maybe 8 now.

[DaughterOfThe9Moons]

I think it's going to be 7. D&D have been saying it is going to be 7 for a while now and I think it has been speculated that there may be 8 but the majority of people seem to have settled on 7. They're more than half way through the TV series by now so if they haven't yet figured out how many seasons they need before the end of the books then they're going to be facing some serious pacing problems. I am sure they have decided and have the story mapped out. They are running out of published material fast especially for certain characters and I am certain they will have to incorporate AFFC and ADwD material into the story this season. Realistically they have 3 seasons left (if they stick with 7) and material from 4 books to include.

[Eberc]

All of this talk of the show overtaking the series is well founded, I honestly believe it will happen. What I don't like is that book readers feel that they are special and that GRRM owes it to them to not let that happen.

If you don't want to be spoiled, don't watch the show. Viewers who were completely captivated by the show and wanted to explore the books were given the same choice.

[Theda Baratheon]

All of this talk of the show overtaking the series is well founded, I honestly believe it will happen. What I don't like is that book readers feel that they are special and that GRRM owes it to them to not let that happen.

If you don't want to be spoiled, don't watch the show. Viewers who were completely captivated by the show and wanted to explore the books were given the same choice.

I'm not one of them, but some people have been reading this series for 2 decades. It's fair that some people aren't looking forward to the show overtaking the books.

[DaughterOfThe9Moons]

I get what you're saying but it's all but impossible not to be spoiled when it's a worldwide hit which is widely discussed on TV, social media and by the general populace. It's not as simple as just not watching the show. I don't think many people are saying that GRRM owes them the books before the show, as I have said I think he personally wants the books out before the shows.

I'm not one of them, but some people have been reading this series for 2 decades. It's fair that some people aren't looking forward to the show overtaking the books.

Also, this. The show is based on the books people love. They are an adaptation, not the original. I think it's perfectly reasonable people want to have the opportunity to finish the books without having them ruined by the show. It's not a matter of attacking GRRM over it.

[Theda Baratheon]

I get what you're saying but it's all but impossible not to be spoiled when it's a worldwide hit which is widely discussed on TV, social media and by the general populace. It's not as simple as just not watching the show. I don't think many people are saying that GRRM owes them the books before the show, as I have said I think he personally wants the books out before the shows.

Exactly. It's not anywhere as easy as simply not watching the show.

[StrollofShame]

Even if George has told D&D the broad strokes, and the faiths of the major characters, he couldn't possibly have told them all the context it happens in, simply because he probably doesn't know it that precisely himself. I think the endings for the major characters will be the same in the show as in the books, but the way how for example Jon learns about his mother and defeats the others (or whatever his end is), is most likely unknown to the showrunners. This is also the reason I don't care as much about the show spoiling the books because there will be so much more left to tell in the books which the show hasn't touched on.

My thoughts exactly. I also think the number of folks here who give up on the show to wait for the books, or conversely, insist they won't read the last book(s) because the ending was ruined by the show, is trending toward a pretty small number overall. I find both show & story irresistible (& not always in a good way...compelling might be a better word.), & suspect many will not want to give either up whilst we wait for the other. It's human nature to satisfy our curiosity.

[Indigocell]

I get what you're saying but it's all but impossible not to be spoiled when it's a worldwide hit which is widely discussed on TV, social media and by the general populace. It's not as simple as just not watching the show. I don't think many people are saying that GRRM owes them the books before the show, as I have said I think he personally wants the books out before the shows.

Also, this. The show is based on the books people love. They are an adaptation, not the original. I think it's perfectly reasonable people want to have the opportunity to finish the books without having them ruined by the show. It's not a matter of attacking GRRM over it.

Thing is, I don't believe the show runners owe the book readers anything as far as not overtaking them in the story. Turn about is fair play since now book readers run the risk of being spoiled in the same way that show-only viewers have been thus far. Actually, one could argue that the type of spoilers us book readers face are miniscule in comparison to things like my friends being spoiled on the Red Wedding for example.

It is unreasonable to assume that the show should wait until you have had a chance to finish the books. That is something that could end up costing them a great deal of money.

[Envie]

I've considered the idea to stop watching the show if and when the time comes there's no more book material to refer to - but then I realized the easier thing to do would be stop participating in this forum and other fan forums where debates will rage wildly out of control because everything at that point will be pure speculation with no way to refer to any of the source material. We'll have no idea which things D&D have made up and which things are actual facts GRRM simply hasn't written. I can still satisfy my craving for anything Game of Thrones by watching the show but as soon as I start to debate on the forums, it goes beyond that into frustration territory when anything hasn't been covered in the books yet.

That's already been happening this season for me. I like solid book references to look back on whenever 'theories' start to go out of control on the forums. I don't mind theories and speculation for the pure enjoyment of the book's mysteries (such as Jon's parentage) - but when you then throw the show's spin on it into the mix, now you've got too many fingers in the pot. Show writers and their idea of events / details vs. GRRM's writing (which may or may not materialize before the show catches up) and on top of that a lot of passionate fan debating and theories. Too much confusion for me! I'll just bow out of the forums and watch the show with a large bag of salt haha.

[Yojimbo]

All of this talk of the show overtaking the series is well founded, I honestly believe it will happen. What I don't like is that book readers feel that they are special and that GRRM owes it to them to not let that happen.

If you don't want to be spoiled, don't watch the show. Viewers who were completely captivated by the show and wanted to explore the books were given the same choice.

Am no, viewers and book readers would not be given the same choice (if this happens), A Game of Thrones was printed in 1996, A Clash of Kings in 1998, A Storm of Swords in 2000, A Feast of Crows in 2005 and A Dance with Dragons in 2011. The show viewers have had 14-18 years to read what will happen, the books readers (if things are going to be spoiled in show), then book readers will have to throw away computers/tvs away and not venture outside until George finish's the books, without getting the books spoiled. And if this is the case then I wish George would have told (me at least) that this is going to happen, then I would have decided to never to read the books in the first place.

And no I've not read the books from the start, 2004 I did start though. 10 years maybe nothing for you, but it been a hell of a long wait for me. And to have the show finish what George started, would be a massive slap in the face to myself, my friends and many other fans of the books. You know the people who where actually interested and loved the books enough, when HBO where presented with a idea to run the show in the first place, they knew there was going to be a market for it because millions of people already bought the books before the show was ever created.

[Miodrag]

Yojimbo,

Don't know if this is going to be any comfort for you, but I'm not worried at all about consequences of show overpassing the books. Even if you don't find D&D's incompetence is as big as I think it is (and I think it's monumental), it's pretty clear they aren't too interested in telling Martin's story. I mean, they prefer things like Talisa, and Locke, and Natalie Dormer from some earlier phases in her career, and Oberyn from Sex and the City, and white walkers from some cheap monster flicks of the 80s, and so on... Hence, I don't think they're going to spoil anything from AWOW and ADOS. Ever since season 1, they were not spoiling ACOK and ASOS for non-readers, and they're probably going to be even less faithful to the source material once they overpass the books. And, besides, I don't think Martin told them too much about endgame. They probably know broad strokes, but no details. Meaning that, talented as they are, they're probably going to be completely lost once they step on the uncharted territory of AWOW and ADOS.

[Yojimbo]

Yojimbo,

Don't know if this is going to be any comfort for you, but I'm not worried at all about consequences of show overpassing the books. Even if you don't find D&D's incompetence is as big as I think it is (and I think it's monumental), it's pretty clear they aren't too interested in telling Martin's story. I mean, they prefer things like Talisa, and Locke, and Natalie Dormer from some earlier phases in her career, and Oberyn from Sex and the City, and white walkers from some cheap monster flicks of the 80s, and so on... Hence, I don't think they're going to spoil anything from AWOW and ADOS. Ever since season 1, they were not spoiling ACOK and ASOS for non-readers, and they're probably going to be even less faithful to the source material once they overpass the books. And, besides, I don't think Martin told them too much about endgame. They probably know broad strokes, but no details. Meaning that, talented as they are, they're probably going to be completely lost once they step on the uncharted territory of AWOW and ADOS.

:agree:

[roxWolfox]

I've considered the idea to stop watching the show if and when the time comes there's no more book material to refer to - but then I realized the easier thing to do would be stop participating in this forum and other fan forums where debates will rage wildly out of control because everything at that point will be pure speculation with no way to refer to any of the source material. We'll have no idea which things D&D have made up and which things are actual facts GRRM simply hasn't written. I can still satisfy my craving for anything Game of Thrones by watching the show but as soon as I start to debate on the forums, it goes beyond that into frustration territory when anything hasn't been covered in the books yet.

That's already been happening this season for me. I like solid book references to look back on whenever 'theories' start to go out of control on the forums. I don't mind theories and speculation for the pure enjoyment of the book's mysteries (such as Jon's parentage) - but when you then throw the show's spin on it into the mix, now you've got too many fingers in the pot. Show writers and their idea of events / details vs. GRRM's writing (which may or may not materialize before the show catches up) and on top of that a lot of passionate fan debating and theories. Too much confusion for me! I'll just bow out of the forums and watch the show with a large bag of salt haha.

Well said.

As much as I like conversing with people who love the story, the constant back and forth of book-readers, non-book-readers, show critics, show fans can be off-putting from time to time.

I like the books, I like watching all the actors growing into their roles/characters, I love the visuals of the show, and yet when I come here to discuss what excited me about the episode ... well, my enthusiasm sours almost immediately.

I try to temper my criticisms, being well aware that I would most likely do far worse in a similar situation to the showrunners ... but then, I'm old and aware of my limitations, so find myself forgiving writers and directors for not seeing a scene the way I imagined it in my head.

Either way, love or hate/like or dislike, people are still talking almost a week later about the episode, so the showrunners are doing something right in the end.

[Indigocell]

Well said.

As much as I like conversing with people who love the story, the constant back and forth of book-readers, non-book-readers, show critics, show fans can be off-putting from time to time.

I like the books, I like watching all the actors growing into their roles/characters, I love the visuals of the show, and yet when I come here to discuss what excited me about the episode ... well, my enthusiasm sours almost immediately.

I try to temper my criticisms, being well aware that I would most likely do far worse in a similar situation to the showrunners ... but then, I'm old and aware of my limitations, so find myself forgiving writers and directors for not seeing a scene the way I imagined it in my head.

Either way, love or hate/like or dislike, people are still talking almost a week later about the episode, so the showrunners are doing something right in the end.

I have emboldened a particularly relevant point to me. I feel like some people just do not know how to enjoy a good thing. Instead, they focus on the one or two things a show does wrong and complain about it ad nauseum, ignoring everything else the series gets right. It's mentally exhausting, but I suppose I do it to myself by coming here to share my enthusiasm.

I'm not saying the series is perfect, it certainly has flaws. I just feel like most of the time the complaints on these forums can be boiled down to unreasonable expectations on the part of the book reader.

The only thing the show runners owe us is to produce a series that is honest to their own vision, not ours or even GRRM. We are lucky how much respect has been given to the source material given the fact that it was literally written it to be unfilmable.

[DaughterOfThe9Moons]

Thing is, I don't believe the show runners owe the book readers anything as far as not overtaking them in the story.

I feel like you're the only one talking about people believing they're owed things anyway. I am pretty sure that most people who find the idea of the show overtaking the books problematic are just expressing their concern.

Turn about is fair play since now book readers run the risk of being spoiled in the same way that show-only viewers have been thus far.

Well I don't know about people here but I've never spoiled anything for show watchers.

Actually, one could argue that the type of spoilers us book readers face are miniscule in comparison to things like my friends being spoiled on the Red Wedding for example.

The entire ending of the series is miniscule? The culmination of every event thus fur that people have spent decades discussing and theorising about? Ok then.

Well said.

As much as I like conversing with people who love the story, the constant back and forth of book-readers, non-book-readers, show critics, show fans can be off-putting from time to time.

I like the books, I like watching all the actors growing into their roles/characters, I love the visuals of the show, and yet when I come here to discuss what excited me about the episode ... well, my enthusiasm sours almost immediately.

I try to temper my criticisms, being well aware that I would most likely do far worse in a similar situation to the showrunners ... but then, I'm old and aware of my limitations, so find myself forgiving writers and directors for not seeing a scene the way I imagined it in my head.

Either way, love or hate/like or dislike, people are still talking almost a week later about the episode, so the showrunners are doing something right in the end.

:agree: I feel the same way. There are a lot of things I love about the show and while I have a few criticisms overall I think they're doing a phenomenal job.

[roxWolfox]

I have emboldened a particularly relevant point to me. I feel like some people just do not know how to enjoy a good thing. Instead, they focus on the one or two things a show does wrong and complain about it ad nauseum, ignoring everything else the series gets right. It's mentally exhausting, but I suppose I do it to myself by coming here to share my enthusiasm.

I'm not saying the series is perfect, it certainly has flaws. I just feel like most of the time the complaints on these forums can be boiled down to unreasonable expectations on the part of the book reader.

The only thing the show runners owe us is to produce a series that is honest to their own vision, not ours or even GRRM. We are lucky how much respect has been given to the source material given the fact that it was literally written it to be unfilmable.

Then it's up to all us like-minded folk to start threads that focus on what geeked us out!

I shall look for your name/avatar Monday morning dear Ser/Lady. :)

:agree: I feel the same way. There are a lot of things I love about the show and while I have a few criticisms overall I think they're doing a phenomenal job.

Thank you! There have been moments where I feel that I'm in a very small group of fans who can see the flaws yet still be in love with the whole picture - book-wise and HBO-wise.

At times I think that sharing my enjoyment of the show is well-nigh heretical to some people. :P

[Theda Baratheon]

I don't think there's anything wrong with criticising what we view. I could go the other way and find it tiresome the people who will argue ad naseum that people should accept EVERYTHING about the show. Why?

I gush about the great stuff and criticise the not-so-great-stuff. And why the hell not?

[Envie]

Then it's up to all us like-minded folk to start threads that focus on what geeked us out!

I shall look for your name/avatar Monday morning dear Ser/Lady. :)

Thank you! There have been moments where I feel that I'm in a very small group of fans who can see the flaws yet still be in love with the whole picture - book-wise and HBO-wise.

At times I think that sharing my enjoyment of the show is well-nigh heretical to some people. :P

I appreciated your previous remarks in reply to my post about quitting the forums once the show has overtaken the books. I just really don't know if I can stomach all the criticisms and wild speculation that goes deeper into crackpot territory every week. Without GRRM's text to ground us, I fear too many people go off on tangents and there's no resolution when you've got nothing 'official' to go by. The show isn't official. It's great for what it is - but it gets frustrating when people are trying to take it literally or even read too much into certain things as definitive clues to their favorite theories.

But then again, I wouldn't still be here on this forum if I didn't like a little bit of theorycraft anyways. ;)

As for the heavy handed criticisms. It's fine to disagree, it's even fine to think certain scenes or actions really stunk if that's your opinion. The problem here is, a lot of people do jump all over you if you actually loved it. That's the part I think quite a few people need to check themselves about and stop arguing.

I also despise the numerous actor / actress bashing threads. Those are so unnecessary. Those have only started being a problem in this past season or two really. There weren't that many the first couple of seasons and those are the ones people complained about the most with 'new' actors learning new stories and material. The show is doing fabulous and all of the actors are pretty much adored overall by a majority of the fans so the minor few who want to nitpick their every nuance, facial expression or tone of voice (Emilia for example) - well, those people just come across looking like mean spirited jerks to me. :P