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[Book Spoilers] True Utility of Craster's Keep Arc


A Raven

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How exactly did showing a few more pointless rape scenes and naked breasts was really appeasing to feminists. Because at the end the women made the idiotic choice to burn the keep and (supposedly) all the supplies there and somehow survive in the wilderness with the Others and Mance's army coming? This doesn't make sense.

Give them some credit. They've been oppressed their entire life and are quite uneducated and inbred. They don't want to stay in their current hell-hole. They don't want to risk going along with more NW, half of whom are on the wall because they were convicted rapists, and so far the wildlings, wights, and Others have left them alone, albeit they need some pregnancies to keep up that protection. They're picking the lesser of two evils; and quite honestly, they probably have a back-up plan - a cave or something with lots of food. I could totally see them heading to Hardhome later on, anyway.

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I'd like to add to the OP that I like the somehwat ironic touch in the fact that Bran now killed the guy who cut off the hand (Jaime's) which had pushed him out of the window.

wooooooooooooooooow, I didn't see that! I love it, and I salute you for finding it. I think the show forums would benefit so much if people committed their attention to finding these new subtle points and moments of foreshadowing instead of just looking for the ones that we already know from the books. Well done, sir or ma'am!

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In my opinion, the greatest benefit of adding it was that it was extremely entertaining. All your points are valid, of course (except maybe the feminist one) and things I've argued about with countless book readers over the internet, but that is the most important reason.



Jon would literally have had nothing to do till episode 9, and Bran, as usual, would just keep trudging through the woods. This provided a nice change in pace for both, and, in my opinion, is one of the best sequences of the entire show. I've said this many times on the site, but the Jojen vision sequence, ending with "You'll know", is my favourite scene in the series thus far.



All that matters is that I was more entertained with TV than I've been in a long time. This season has been killing it, and I loved that scene :)


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lots of good points made here.



I think it's important to remember that the show will deviate from the books - and it's necessary to do so for many reasons already listed in this thread...


1) keeping the main actors involved


2) more efficiently telling the story


- are probably the two primary ones that fuel changes



I think a lot of the changes that are made are fine and make for entertaining television as well as a more compact story that works. In fact, the #1 thing I didn't like from this season was the Jamie rape - which came not as much from changing the original story, but just from bad direction or writing of the scene. That scene should have been more obviously consensual, as it needlessly and violently ruined Jamie's character arc - to the point that I'm personally just replacing what happened in the show with what happened in the books in order to not be constantly frustrated.



But otherwise, I see a lot of merit behind the shows changes... it was an entertaining way to have a lot more screen time with Bran/Jon and accomplish a lot of important points (already listed). It also reset things now to being more similar to the books (Bran still going north without contact with JOn - which btw I knew was going to happen somehow in that scene ... direwolves returned to owners ... show-only characters killed)



At this point, it's clear the show is not a direct exposition of the books - nor do i believe it should be. Accept the changes, and take the show for what it is - very well done television that is being reasonably faithful to the books, all things considered.


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5. Appease modern feminists

Hahaha indeed it felt right to have a bit of agency given to those helpless women. Those two last episodes were really difficult to watch because of the sexual violence. I also liked what Cercei said, "they hurt little girls everywhere". It's food for thoughts (maybe for people who think that the violence is acceptable because it's "just a fiction" although it happens in the real world at this very moment too)

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I really don't think Craster's wives are in any danger from the Others now that we know they aren't just mindless killing machines. There's no reason they can't show some gratitude and at least some of them are their sons besides.



That said, if they really did burn the keep without taking all of the useful supplies and food from it first, that was a pretty stupid move, but as Gilly proved to Sam, they know how to live in the wilderness.


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All this talk of Craster's Keep being "filler" is just crazy talk. As if D&D have got a spare second to "fill".. let alone 15 minutes per episode! Every single scene is there for a reason.. not just for that episode, but with regards to the season AND the whole series. When GoT is complete and you watch the seasons again, from start to finish (over a week or two hopefully!), you'll see how everything falls into place, with regards to the bigger picture. A scene that you thought was filler or out of place in episode 3 of season 2, may well make everything fall into place (regarding a character's arc), in episode 9 of season 5. You just need to stand back and appreciate the bigger picture.


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All this talk of Craster's Keep being "filler" is just crazy talk. As if D&D have got a spare second to "fill".. let alone 15 minutes per episode! Every single scene is there for a reason.. not just for that episode, but with regards to the season AND the whole series. When GoT is complete and you watch the seasons again, from start to finish (over a week or two hopefully!), you'll see how everything falls into place, with regards to the bigger picture. A scene that you thought was filler or out of place in episode 3 of season 2, may well make everything fall into place (regarding a character's arc), in episode 9 of season 5. You just need to stand back and appreciate the bigger picture.

Exactly. I remember reading all those comments about disgruntled fans in Season 3 who were complaining nothing was happening- they hadn't realized that the entire season building towards the Red Wedding. Game of Thrones is about the bigger picture. This is why I roll my eyes when I hear "professional critics" complain about filler- there is no such thing as filler in Game of Thrones.

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I agree with the OP, apart from the "Appease modern feminists" bit.



The season would be sagging in the middle without some action. Adapting a literature narrative to a visual one does need to make some changes. I thought these scenes were great.


A non reader friend emailed me about those scenes and he rarely comments on the show. I remember the complaints last year that the pacing was too slow, so I think adding some action this year was a good move.



I am viewing this as a tv show and not a summary of the books. Far too often tv/movie adaptations are simply a few key scenes put on film and it doesn't feel like a story in it's own right. I felt this way with Harry Potter.


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Exactly. I remember reading all those comments about disgruntled fans in Season 3 who were complaining nothing was happening- they hadn't realized that the entire season building towards the Red Wedding. Game of Thrones is about the bigger picture. This is why I roll my eyes when I hear "professional critics" complain about filler- there is no such thing as filler in Game of Thrones.

The majority of folks here have read the books multiple times, so almost no one had failed to realize that the entire season was building toward the RW. Some people were simply smart enough to realize that much of the screen time was dedicated to boring conversations and pointless events which had nothing to do with the RW (or anything at all).

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Once again going to start with the statement, I sincerely love the shows. The writers, cast, crew, artists, directors.... everyone involved with the shows have done an amazing job! Can't even imagine how they do it all. 'Brilliant' is the word that comes to mind when I think of all the amazing talents that have lent their hands to the production of the entire series. Also realizing there are changes that have to happen because of the difference in mediums. IMO until the last two episodes, the changes seemed necessary and wise, but not ones that really change Martin's story too much.



Realizing that most people who post on internet forums are much younger than I am, I suppose the action scenes would probably suit their tastes better than intrigue and character development so I can somewhat understand the overwhelming love of the Craster's Keep scenes in the last two episodes. The more blood and sexual violence the better, right? In the books Coldhands is a much beloved and very mysterious figure. There could have been a couple of interesting scenes with him to flesh out the Bran arc a little. CH could have even included the scene where he mutineers (who are wights by then) in an off the scene moment from the books, & there would be the fight with the wights in order to get Bran into the cave... a very exciting scene, but didn't include rape or even nudity, a limitation for some, I know. Jon has lots of negotiating and relationship building to do at the wall. There are lots of things in the books that could make this storyline interesting enough for the show... still no violence or even nudity, sorry to say.



Just gotta say: If they are going to write a new story, then D&D and whoever else is in charge of the storyline should at the very least stop implying they are trying to bring GRRM's story to screen. They should just change the name of the series, and give GRRM credit for being an inspiration, and go their merry way with the rest of the story.



I cannot agree that what ever they make up between the beginning and the end of GRRM's series is acceptable as long as they reach the same end point. What an absurd and ridiculous argument. I will not be the same story if they tell a different story. Period. Not saying the show is FUBAR yet, but just saying, this kind of disregard for the original story is playing it awfully close to that edge.


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Quote not working...
^^"If they are going to write a new story, then D&D and whoever else is in charge of the storyline should at the very least stop implying they are trying to bring GRRM's story to screen. They should just change the name of the series, and give GRRM credit for being an inspiration, and go their merry way with the rest of the story."

They did, GRRM's series is called "A Song of Ice and Fire". The tv series is called Game of Thrones. Which is an adaptation not a summary. So far for all the changes have been fine, apart from the Sept scene with Jaime and Cersei which I think was a misstep.

I think the Craster scenes were better than Bran & co trudging through the snow (with or without Coldhands). Jon Snow got something to do. The series had some action in the middle. No harm done.

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Once again going to start with the statement, I sincerely love the shows. The writers, cast, crew, artists, directors.... everyone involved with the shows have done an amazing job! Can't even imagine how they do it all. 'Brilliant' is the word that comes to mind when I think of all the amazing talents that have lent their hands to the production of the entire series. Also realizing there are changes that have to happen because of the difference in mediums. IMO until the last two episodes, the changes seemed necessary and wise, but not ones that really change Martin's story too much.

*snip*

I cannot agree that what ever they make up between the beginning and the end of GRRM's series is acceptable as long as they reach the same end point. What an absurd and ridiculous argument. I will not be the same story if they tell a different story. Period. Not saying the show is FUBAR yet, but just saying, this kind of disregard for the original story is playing it awfully close to that edge.

so what is it now - brilliant or bordering fubar?

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so what is it now - brilliant or bordering fubar?

Please note the qualifier: "until the last two episodes" . Also note qualifier: "Not saying the show is FUBAR yet". Then reread. Makes more sense that way. :)

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