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Blazfemur

[Book/Show Spoilers] Anyone else surprised at Sandor/Arya scene?

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Unpleasantly surprised by his backhanding her. Didn't like the scene, didn't like the episode, don't know what they're


doing or where they are going.....and neither do they, I think. Yes, the Hound hit her with an axe; yes, he was rough


and brutally honest with her during their wanderings. But I can't believe anyone can really believe he hung on to her


just for gold. He served at court as Joffrey's swornshield even before he was made a Kingsguard and he has to know how crazy Lysa Arryn is. She talks in the book about how Joffrey used to tease and torment Sweet Robin and


the Hound had to have been in the big middle of that. She's more likely to have him thrown out the Moon Door as


reward.him for returning Arya. In the book, after the Red Wedding it is clear from his behavior(not eating, chopping


tons of firework and then not lighting a fire, bitter, unhappy looks in her direction) that he thinks seriously about just


abandoning her. He tells her she's not worth squat to him now. But, as I have always taken it, some tiny shred of decency prevents him from acting on this evil impulse. True, as a caretaker, he sucks a big one. But he feeds her


(he splits the hare he caught in half even though he's what?.....three times her size) and takes the job building the


palisade to provide shelter and money for them both. And she's his link with Sansa. And I agree with the person


who said they've reversed the Hound's and Arya's roles. Instead of trailing along traumatized in his wake, Little


Miss Perky seems to be calling the shots. And as much as I love Rory, he was way too Scottish in that scene. It was


like there was no one directing it, just a camera rolling. The whole episode was like that, flat, awkward and aimless.



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They didn't resolve the stabbing though.

Next week the wound might be festering, and the Hound weak from it.

There are so many things for Arya in Braavos. Wish she would get there sooner than later. There's nothing going on in these scenes.

First you saw something that didn't happen, then you say there's nothing happening in these scenes.....

Arya has much more to do now with Sandor than run off for Braavos where we rarely saw her in the books. There's only 3 Arya chapters in AFFC, and only 2 in ADWD.

They need to keep her and the Hound together for as long as poss.

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^Agree, it was poorly filmed. Wasn't it Michele MacLaren who said before that she didn't get the Hound? Funny since she's touted as the 'action' director. Yes, it seems they are using Sandor to prop up Arya. He did seem fine staying in the village with her until they kicked him out.

There were calls of whitewashing the Hound in Season 2. And he was chivalric to Sansa. And then we get an even more angry, gruff, harsh Hound with Arya. He baited her about Mycah when he cried on the book, he was going to kill the pig farmer on the show, when he didn't for the reader. He hits the man who takes him in and steals from him, he smacks Arya just like Meryn did Sansa right in the scene where they were talking about Meryn.

I'm not sure I understand the change. Did they think he wasn't dangerous enough before? They made the choices they did to him with Sansa. They gave Littlefinger his story, the changed GRRM's script with the song and used the 'you won't hurt me' line from the deleted scene with them and therefore cut it from the aired episode.

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Yeah, book Hound was very different, I think they are sacrificing his character development for hers. He's propping her up. He never would have hit her, they could have had him just shove her. He's teaching her lessons at the expense of his own story.

He was driving himself nuts about that time about standing by while they hit Sansa, the whole time he was with Arya. He really couldn't have done more than he did, which was give her advice, try to head Joffrey off from doing it, and help her afterwards, but that he blamed himself is pretty revealing. He said, "No one would hurt you again."

So add that to all that he tried to do, and "Enough" and "Fuck the king" and then later, bringing it up repeatedly to Arya. After the Beric fight, "I watched them beat your sister bloody, too" - that's him saying he failed her. And then he tells Arya, "I never beat your sister." And then finally (rule of three), he says, "I stood there in my white cloak and let them beat her" while sobbing.

Hitting Arya with an axe was to save her life, she was running headfirst into a massacre, and he risked his life to save her (which he did for Sansa, too, earlier, walking into a 30-to-1 mob to do so). And that was the second time he saved Arya in that chapter, earlier he saved her when she was cornered. He wasn't just in it for the money, that was Sansa's sister.

When she was about to hit him with a rock, she said he took it from her like a baby and gave her another chance. After a while of this, she came to realize he wasn't going to hurt her. When she hit him below the belt by saying he lost his belly for fighting, that was the maddest he ever got, and all he did was toss her the food he caught and cooked for her.

She stayed with him even though she kept saying he didn't care if she ran off or not. When they were about to go into the inn, she thought to herself, here's my chance, I can leave. And she thinks we shouldn't go in here. But what does she do? She follows him into danger. And then she still doesn't leave, she defends him, he would have died if she hadn't.

And then after he passes out, she doesn't leave then, either, she finishes caring for his wounds. And she takes him off her list, and asks why she did that, and thinks she barely knew Mycah. But she's come to know the Hound, is the subtext. And she thinks, I could just leave, "I wouldn't have to kill him."

And all through this she starts calling him Sandor. And then she can't bring herself to kill him. And her parting shot is, you should have saved my life better, you should have saved my mother. That's like saying you should have been a superhero. So yeah, she wasn't fond of him, but there was something going on there.

She was conflicted when she left him.

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This show has apparently made me a terrible person, because when Arya, who's been mouthing off about how she's going to murder the Hound for a while now (and just tried to stab him), gets backhanded, I was all "Talk shit, get hit." Did the Hound need to backhand her to make his point? No. Did I care that he did? Not really.


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This show has apparently made me a terrible person, because when Arya, who's been mouthing off about how she's going to murder the Hound for a while now (and just tried to stab him), gets backhanded, I was all "Talk shit, get hit." Did the Hound need to backhand her to make his point? No. Did I care that he did? Not really.

"You think I enjoy doing this to you?!"

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None of it made much sense, I get that she's never going to have the armor/big sword, she's not built for it, she has to find other ways (enter, the FM). But book Arya was smart enough to know that already.

And if show Arya killed the Hound, what next? He's taking her to her aunt, and she's safe with him, without him, she'd last like a day on the road, if that. So they went there with the ooc stuff for nothing.

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Yes, I agree. It's brutal, but then again, she did just stab him - and that was no play stab, he is on her list - and I think if it was anyone else but Arya Stark that person would be dead shortly after hitting the ground.

I think one thing about their relationship is: the Hound sees himself when he sees her - seething, cynical and hate-filled. She may be highborn but is no respecter of social rank, and neither is he. One part of this similarity is that when Arya judges him, she judges him the way he'd judge himself. Would he forgive someone like himself for Mycah? Deep down, no.

I think this is why the Hound feels some unspoken obligation to keep her around, and even teach her a bit of the real-world. If it was for truly mercenary reasons (like the way Bronn is), he'd have bound her up and delivered her to some Freys for a quick reward.

Exactly, she gives him a sense of purpose, hes spent all of his adult life serving people like Arya, and like you have pointed out he is serving her by trying to deliver her to a relative at least instead of an enemy.

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Thanks for the great recap Le Cygne. Yes it does seem like Arya's time with the Hound is making up with the character building that we didn't get in Harrenhal. I didn't have a problem with the scenes as I was watching them, but you guys are expressing exactly why I like the books so much better. Also, I remember that when I was reading the book, for me Arya's adventures with the Hound were about Arya realizing he wasn't a bad guy after all, about the Hound proving this to us, and about his love for Sansa, which was really downplayed in the show. That's what I was mostly eager to read about in those chapters. Sooo it makes me wonder if the show's take on the Hound means there's not so much going on between him and Sansa.


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Here is what I think is going to happen:



Brienne/Pod will cross roads with Hound/Arya. Brienne is looking for the Stark girls, so she demands that the Hound hand over Arya, the Hound refuses and an epic duel takes place between Brienne and the Hound. Brienne wins the duel and gravely wounds the Hound, Brienne then takes Arya with her and they leave the Hound to his death. Arya later escapes to Braavos where she becomes a faceless assassin.



This scenario makes Brienne a valuable witness against fArya later on.


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Arya has much more to do now with Sandor than run off for Braavos where we rarely saw her in the books. There's only 3 Arya chapters in AFFC, and only 2 in ADWD.

Arya appears in AFFC Samwell III so that's 4 in Crows.(That one is short, I know.)

For me those 6 chapters were very rich in material, strange happenings, over all hooked me in.

As I remember those are long chapters (well George does that!) full of so many exotic things , I can see , if elaborated well finding plenty of material in Braavos.

Braavos itself is , for me, so far the most interesting setting in the books.

In Crows and Dance Arya's first and Tyrion's stories were ones that GRRM seemed to have the most fun with, with pieces of Dany's story being startling.

The Wall story was third.

Davos's story fourth.

I was intrigued by Asha's story and Theon's.

The rest was Geroge doing good story telling but , for me, seems stretched way beyond what the plot demanded.

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I realize the Arya/Hound scenes are a favorite of show viewers, but I can't stand them. One of my issues with the Arya/Hound show!narrative is they almost reversed the characters. First, book!Hound never physically harmed the peasant he stole the cart from to get into the RW. The show portrayed him as a cold-blooded murderer and Arya as some beacon of justice. So, show!Hound is not only a thief, but he's a cold-blooded murderer, as well. Then he's apparently a man with a "code" who doesn't steal, even though the audience already knows he steals. Even though the audience already knows he lost all his gold because he was robbed by the BwB, Arya, who was there when he was robbed, can't figure out why he has no gold, and apparently the Hound forgot, as well. Then in the next scene he's stealing from another villager, AND HARMS HIM: A man who not only offers guest rights, but offers him fair work for fair wages (book!Hound accepts this and never harms anyone). Book!Arya HATES the idea of spending any time in the village. Show!Arya is relieved by the prospect.

But what REALLY sent me over the edge with show!Hound is him slapping Arya. Arya suffers beatings by Yoren and her captors at Harrenhall, but as much as she tries to kill and get under the skin of the Hound, he never hits her. NEVER. Regardless of his emotional state, he never raises a had to her. It pissed me off to no end that show!Hound SLAPPED Arya. So out of character.

So you don't like dark fantasy at all?

If you say you do then you are bullshitting... Dark story and Dark fantasy is filled with racism, blood, gritty and horrifying with all hope for the ''good guys'' is extinguished whilst the bad guys live and the moral grey people like the hound is the people who live in dark fantasy. look at the witcher, and at Game of thrones/Asioaf... It's like it is for a reason.

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How is it that saying they reversed the characterization for the Hound and Arya on the show is not liking dark fantasy. It was actually more interesting with the woman being the darker character.

Arya and the Hound were heading in opposite directions in the books, Arya was heading where the Hound had been emotionally, and the Hound was heading away from that darker place. There was actually character development and a story taking place for Sandor (Arya even started calling him Sandor, imagine that, he has a name).

He had gone from hate driving him to love driving him, and that love was for someone Arya once loved, too. But she hasn't come up yet for some reason (even though he brought her up a dozen times in the books). Arya had lost those she loved and felt more and more like no one, hate was driving her now.

There was a last glimmer of who she once was with the Hound, maybe hating wasn't the way, maybe when you get to know someone, things don't look so black and white anymore. On to the House of Black and White.

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So you don't like dark fantasy at all?

So, you don't think it's possible DogLover likes, or has nothing against, dark fantasy, but actually dislikes bad dark fantasy?

Dark story and Dark fantasy is filled with racism, blood, gritty and horrifying with all hope for the ''good guys'' is extinguished whilst the bad guys live and the moral grey people like the hound is the people who live in dark fantasy. look at the witcher, and at Game of thrones/Asioaf... It's like it is for a reason.

Not really. Bad dark fantasy usually fits your description. Formulaic and vulgarly simplistic morality tales are just bad, even when the morality is turned upside down and "good guys" replace "bad guys" in the role of traditional losers. Thankfully, ASOIAF books are pretty far from that territory.

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Maybe they cut all of the Sansa-Sandor references in the show because it's obvious the show prefers dwelling with the Sansa-Tyrion scenario. Sansa already has left the capital and in most of her scenes from there she spoke nicely of Tyrion.



I hope the show doesn't go this extreme and instead of having Sansa thinking about Sandor in the Vale she starts fantasizing about Tyrion. :eek:


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I seriously doubt it. Sophie said in a recent interview, Sansa doesn't love Tyrion, and on the recap said marrying him was the worst day in Sansa's life. If that were the case, Pod would end up with Tyrion. Shae would end up with Tyrion. Bronn would end up with Tyrion. Even Cersei would end up with Tyrion before this season. They've painted scenes of each of these characters with him FAR nicer than in the books, and them far nicer to him in return. The whole show is a love story between Tyrion/Westeros. When he goes to Essos, it will be Tyrion/Essos. Watch out, Jorah, you are about to lose your story, too.

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So, you don't think it's possible DogLover likes, or has nothing against, dark fantasy, but actually dislikes bad dark fantasy?

Not really. Bad dark fantasy usually fits your description. Formulaic and vulgarly simplistic morality tales are just bad, even when the morality is turned upside down and "good guys" replace "bad guys" in the role of traditional losers. Thankfully, ASOIAF books are pretty far from that territory.

You can tell between good dark and bad dark ofcourse but more or less it's the way it is.

The witcher fills my quota and that is the only time i have felt the atmosphere triumphed over ASIOAF world.

MY personal favorites are reedeming characters, falling characters and total psychos.

Dark is never about morality it's about realism to show that this is more or less the way the world is the world is not filled with knights in shining armor the world is filled with cutthroats and rapers.

thing is a fantasy story have knights but Dark fantasy has knights who are not honorable nor filled with bravery. No dark fantasy can make a knight into a rapist and a thief since that is basically what a knight does during a war.

and by god... I love it.

Favorite comic books I have are dark comics meaning new 52 DC universe batman and suicide squad, Fables and The walking dead.

I love dark fantasy and storytelling and as you said sometimes it's not that good but from time to time there comes something that does it right.

and that is why I am against most of the theories in asioaf. *(meaning R+L AAR PTWP)*

Cause to me Dark fantasy should not have hidden romance and love, or a person who is some kind of superman being able to survive in situations most would not.

but I digress let's talk about the topic at hand.

I liked this scene very very much

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Arya appears in AFFC Samwell III so that's 4 in Crows.(That one is short, I know.)

For me those 6 chapters were very rich in material, strange happenings, over all hooked me in.

As I remember those are long chapters (well George does that!) full of so many exotic things , I can see , if elaborated well finding plenty of material in Braavos.

Braavos itself is , for me, so far the most interesting setting in the books.

I agree. I can't wait for Arya to get to Braavos because I think it will be so interesting. I definitely think there is enough good material there to keep viewers interested throughout season 5 (which is when I predict she will arrive and go through her training). My only concern is that they keep cutting things due to budget, and I wonder how much they have set aside for the House of Black and White and Braavos. In my mind, it was all very exotic and detailed, so I am concerned that CGI would be required for the settings and eat into their budget, maybe causing a lot of the scale of the scenes to be cut back.

Here is what I think is going to happen:

Brienne/Pod will cross roads with Hound/Arya. Brienne is looking for the Stark girls, so she demands that the Hound hand over Arya, the Hound refuses and an epic duel takes place between Brienne and the Hound. Brienne wins the duel and gravely wounds the Hound, Brienne then takes Arya with her and they leave the Hound to his death. Arya later escapes to Braavos where she becomes a faceless assassin.

This scenario makes Brienne a valuable witness against fArya later on.

I really like this idea. I think the quiet isle is going to get cut, so this could make sense. It would change Brienne's story drastically though, I would imagine. She has to have something to do for the remainder of this season and next, so I think she still needs to go to Maidenpool (and this is great to give more background on her with Ser Hyle Hunt). Cool idea, but I would be surprised if it happens.

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Maybe they cut all of the Sansa-Sandor references in the show because it's obvious the show prefers dwelling with the Sansa-Tyrion scenario. Sansa already has left the capital and in most of her scenes from there she spoke nicely of Tyrion.

I hope the show doesn't go this extreme and instead of having Sansa thinking about Sandor in the Vale she starts fantasizing about Tyrion. :eek:

LOL, I doubt it, but who knows? Nothing surprises me anymore with this show.

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Maybe they cut all of the Sansa-Sandor references in the show because it's obvious the show prefers dwelling with the Sansa-Tyrion scenario. Sansa already has left the capital and in most of her scenes from there she spoke nicely of Tyrion.

I hope the show doesn't go this extreme and instead of having Sansa thinking about Sandor in the Vale she starts fantasizing about Tyrion. :eek:

:ack:

Sadly, I think it's going to happen... After she refused to leave with Sandor, she never gave him a second thought. After all they didn't even talk to each other as they did in the books. They never established a real connection, and now they won't meet again for another... maybe two, three seasons (because he'll be "dead")? Why should he suddenly pop up in her mind now? :dunno:

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