[Spoilers] Next Episode - Asha/Yara at the Dreadfort

[Misnthropia]

Maybe the bank robber explained to them his situation and they sympathized?

Anyway, I am not going to argue against what you're saying, I just can't see this happening to Sandor for example. Daenerys maybe, even Ramsay himself, but Sandor or Bronn? No. Just no.

You cant see it happening to Sandor?

Sandor is an emotionally crippled man. He doesnt show it but deep down he has huge emotional problems, this is why he helps Sansa and Arya, but makes it out to be a hostage situation. Im sure if you knew anything about his childhood you could get him to snap pretty quickly.

[Kingpin]

You cant see it happening to Sandor?

Sandor is an emotionally crippled man. He doesnt show it but deep down he has huge emotional problems, this is why he helps Sansa and Arya, but makes it out to be a hostage situation. Im sure if you knew anything about his childhood you could get him to snap pretty quickly.

Theon didn't break because of his emotional issues, but because he's a coward and has no pride.

Sandor would spit on him, and if Ramsay shoved a knife up his chest, he'd spit on him again just because. He'd probably know what Ramsay was trying to do and would act accordingly.

So no, I can't. Bronn neither. Jaqen h'ghar? Nope.These people stand on solid ground, they know what they want, they know the people, they know the world. You can buy them out but you can't manipulate them. "Fuck the King", that's Sandor.

I haven't read the books, this is the impression I got from the TV show, so no.

[Ser Irvine]

It's the dumbest fucking scene so far I think...

I thought it was the best next to Stannis/Davos & certain parts of the trial. Allow me to explain.

Those people freaking out about the Iron Born not putting up more of a fight, you do to realize they were in the bowels of the Dreadfort do you not? One of the strongest and certainly the most feared northern keeps second only to Winterfell? Rivaled only by Karhold (Now first considering Winterfells status) 50 of the best Iron born killers or not they would have been slaughtered and/or captured/flayed given another minute. Even Ramsay and his few men dominated the heavily armed Iron born in that clash and if you noticed only Yara did any real killing before she realized she was completely screwed. She does however have "big balls" to suggest that Ramsay surrender when she herself is defeated.

The hounds were just Ramsay's way of having a little fun. I'd personally bet the Bolton's bastard could have taken her one on one the way he made short work of her best men (Who said Ramsay was untested?). Ramsay & the Boltons don't get enough credit on this show by the fans. This Ramsay is a far more interesting and logistically more powerful then the one shown in the books who's just a crazed animal rivaled only by Gregor Clegane. Bolton's with the Frey's behind them and the blessing of Kings Landing are the strongest force in the TV Westeros right now although Stannis with the Iron Bank behind him might be the only thing capable of eclipsing that. The Greyjoy's are plucky-to-the-end losers overall. Sure they fight well, just not well enough to stand toe to toe with the big boys. Baratheon, Bolton, Frey, Lannister, Stark (in memoriam), Tyrell. These are the big boys. The Iron Born should indeed return to their "shit stained rocks" and raid fishing villages LOL

[Misnthropia]

Theon didn't break because of his emotional issues, but because he's a coward and has no pride.

Sandor would spit on him, and if Ramsay shoved a knife up his chest, he'd spit on him again just because. He'd probably know what Ramsay was trying to do and would act accordingly.

So no, I can't. Bronn neither. Jaqen h'ghar? Nope.These people stand on solid ground, they know what they want, they know the people, they know the world. You can buy them out but you can't manipulate them. "Fuck the King", that's Sandor.

I haven't read the books, this is the impression I got from the TV show, so no.

Theon did break because of his emotional issues.

He has no sense of self. He has no idea who he is. He was sent to Winterfell as a child, brought up as an outsider and when he went back to Pyke he was rejected because he was more of a Stark than a Greyjoy - the very family he just stabbed in the back! The family that raised him, was his real family and it was only when he was strung up did he realise that Robb was his brother. Of course he had emotional issues. Ramsay played on that, the whole trip through the woods telling him he was free, he was going to see his sister. Only to wind up back in a cage and told his father knew of his imprisonment.

Ramsay is an expert torturer, like any form of torture once you find the crack in the armor you attack and attack.

Someone like Sandor has major cracks in his armor. His sister was murdered presumably at the hands of the Mountain and his faced was shoved in the fire. He feels responsible for the girls he protects like his sister.

You clearly have no grasp on torture nor the inner workings of the charachters if you think Theon cracked because hes a coward and Sandor Clegane is a rock.

[Good Guy Garlan]

I've seen lots of non-readers complaining not only about this particular episode, but about the whole Dreadfort/Ironborn storyline. I think the showrunners should re-evaluate their approach to this segment for next season, because I do think something there is a bit off, especially for non-readers

[Anarchosaurus Rex]

More evidence that the showrunners have no idea what they are doing, or that the target demographic is idiotic. Probably a little of both.

First of all, this was the climax of a mission from last season? Asha rounds up her most badass warriors to go kick ass and chew bubblegum, and they get beaten by a pack of dogs? Theon took Winterfell with a bunch of Ironborn rejects. Seemed anticlimactic and pointless to me.

Also, her whole speech was wrong. The Ironborn don't give a damn about "your prince...YOUR PRINCE." Ironborn follow strength, not titles. Theon means nothing to them.

Oh, and Ramsay and "Myranda"? Sure, D&D has Jaime, the anti-hero on the redemption arc, do the raping, and Ramsay, a depraved monster, having hot sex with a willing bedwarmer. Keep up the good work, y'all!

[Good Guy Garlan]

Well, yeah, the entire rescue mission was awful, but I do think the showrunners at least learned a bit from their mistakes last season because they are giving the Boltons and the Dreadfort much less screentime this time, unlike last season when every two episodes was Theon turture.

But then again, I also think (and I may be overreacting, but whatever) that the Greyjoys as a whole lost about half of their appeal since season 2 when they changed the character of Asha for the worse

Like, Theon himself says it in his POV in aCoK. The Iron Islands are a grim and shitty place, but Asha was about the only witty and entertaining person in there

[Koi No Yokan]

Really, it just felt like the entire arc needed to bridge the gaps to make it feel much more cohesive and desperate. The way Ramsay/Myranda and the Ironborn scenes were interlocking, I was waiting for the ball to drop with Ramsay killing Myranda (or someone coming in to kill her in the act). They really missed something to indicate why Ramsay was still shirtless and covered in blood.

Then there certainly needed to be something else after Ramsay began to release the hounds, to show us just how dire the situation is for the Ironborn. No doubt the full might of the Dreadfort was about to rain down on them, but it definitely could have been fleshed out better than "Ramsay pulls out key, cut to Ironborn fleeing outside".

I liked the idea of the scene, and I liked the beginning and aftermath result with Theon; just thought the execution was poor. Very rushed and disjointed.

At least Asha will be back in time for the Kingsmoot, it seems.

[Hath4]

More evidence that the showrunners have no idea what they are doing, or that the target demographic is idiotic. Probably a little of both.

First of all, this was the climax of a mission from last season? Asha rounds up her most badass warriors to go kick ass and chew bubblegum, and they get beaten by a pack of dogs? Theon took Winterfell with a bunch of Ironborn rejects. Seemed anticlimactic and pointless to me.

Also, her whole speech was wrong. The Ironborn don't give a damn about "your prince...YOUR PRINCE." Ironborn follow strength, not titles. Theon means nothing to them.

Oh, and Ramsay and "Myranda"? Sure, D&D has Jaime, the anti-hero on the redemption arc, do the raping, and Ramsay, a depraved monster, having hot sex with a willing bedwarmer. Keep up the good work, y'all!

well let's be honest here the two are not comparable, myranda is there willingly because she is as psychotic and sadistic as ramsay. she like him enjoys sadism.

[protar]

I've seen lots of non-readers complaining not only about this particular episode, but about the whole Dreadfort/Ironborn storyline. I think the showrunners should re-evaluate their approach to this segment for next season, because I do think something there is a bit off, especially for non-readers

Well fortunately next season they'll actually be using ADWD so there'll be a proper plot. Imo they should have bought some of that forwards to S4. They could have introduced Jeyne as a fellow prisoner in S3, and had the first part of Theon's Dance chapters in S4, ending with Ramsay's marriage to Jeyne.

[Kingpin]

Theon did break because of his emotional issues.

He has no sense of self. He has no idea who he is. He was sent to Winterfell as a child, brought up as an outsider and when he went back to Pyke he was rejected because he was more of a Stark than a Greyjoy - the very family he just stabbed in the back! The family that raised him, was his real family and it was only when he was strung up did he realise that Robb was his brother. Of course he had emotional issues. Ramsay played on that, the whole trip through the woods telling him he was free, he was going to see his sister. Only to wind up back in a cage and told his father knew of his imprisonment.

Ramsay is an expert torturer, like any form of torture once you find the crack in the armor you attack and attack.

Someone like Sandor has major cracks in his armor. His sister was murdered presumably at the hands of the Mountain and his faced was shoved in the fire. He feels responsible for the girls he protects like his sister.

You clearly have no grasp on torture nor the inner workings of the charachters if you think Theon cracked because hes a coward and Sandor Clegane is a rock.

My opinion still stands. Even if they had the same past theoritically, but were the same men they were today, Sandor would not crack.

They are different men, Theon is a coward and Sandor is a beast.

Again, just from what the show has shown us and not the books.

[Pablosplinter]

I thought the whole scene was embarrassing in pretty much every way tbh. Shame, as the rest of the episode was pretty good.

[Cas Stark]

I've seen lots of non-readers complaining not only about this particular episode, but about the whole Dreadfort/Ironborn storyline. I think the showrunners should re-evaluate their approach to this segment for next season, because I do think something there is a bit off, especially for non-readers

I'm curious, what is the problem the non book readers saw with the scene?

[Conchobar]

So then they probably added the sound of battle into it post production to make it look like the blood was from men he had killed rather than Myranda?

[ser benjamin]

My opinion still stands. Even if they had the same past theoritically, but were the same men they were today, Sandor would not crack.

They are different men, Theon is a coward and Sandor is a beast.

Again, just from what the show has shown us and not the books.

Kingpin,

As to your views on Sandor and Theon, I would remind you that one of the major themes in this story is "things may not be as they seem". Keep that in mind here... as with any story that is only about 1/3 told.

Also remember, Sandor didn't "Stand up and die like a man" at the Blackwater. He turned tail, forswore his holy vow, and ran.... Now he has a 10 year old girl hostage and plans to sell her to distant cousins.

[Hath4]

The problem with the theory that ramsay killed some ironborn on his way to the kennels is, the other men he was with did not look like they had engaged in any combat. it really is somewhat confusing.

[Cas Stark]

So then they probably added the sound of battle into it post production to make it look like the blood was from men he had killed rather than Myranda?

When I rewatched the episode, the blood on Ramsay looked more like it was "on" him, not his own blood, even though it's diagonal, like possibly scratches? Or else someone did a really bad job w/the make up because it didn't look deep enough to be even shallow sword wounds. And how in the hell would he get a bunch of super shallow cuts anyway from people with axes, swords and shields?

[Kingpin]

Kingpin,

As to your views on Sandor and Theon, I would remind you that one of the major themes in this story is "things may not be as they seem". Keep that in mind here... as with any story that is only about 1/3 told.

Also remember, Sandor didn't "Stand up and die like a man" at the Blackwater. He turned tail, forswore his holy vow, and ran.... Now he has a 10 year old girl hostage and plans to sell her to distant cousins.

Yeah sure, I just can't see it up to now.

The difference is Sandor didn't give a shit, he said "fuck the king" in front of the guard and left. That doesn't mean he's a coward, but that he looks after his own hide. I never said he's an honest or a good man, just that he is walking on a very solid ground, right or wrong, and can't be manipulated by Ramsay.

I think he's "above him" in a way. A 10 year old wouldn't be able to manipulate you for instance.

When I rewatched the episode, the blood on Ramsay looked more like it was "on" him, not his own blood, even though it's diagonal, like possibly scratches? Or else someone did a really bad job w/the make up because it didn't look deep enough to be even shallow sword wounds. And how in the hell would he get a bunch of super shallow cuts anyway from people with axes, swords and shields?

Maybe the cuts were part of the sex.

[Yojimbo]

Theon did break because of his emotional issues.

He has no sense of self. He has no idea who he is. He was sent to Winterfell as a child, brought up as an outsider and when he went back to Pyke he was rejected because he was more of a Stark than a Greyjoy - the very family he just stabbed in the back! The family that raised him, was his real family and it was only when he was strung up did he realise that Robb was his brother. Of course he had emotional issues. Ramsay played on that, the whole trip through the woods telling him he was free, he was going to see his sister. Only to wind up back in a cage and told his father knew of his imprisonment.

Ramsay is an expert torturer, like any form of torture once you find the crack in the armor you attack and attack.

Someone like Sandor has major cracks in his armor. His sister was murdered presumably at the hands of the Mountain and his faced was shoved in the fire. He feels responsible for the girls he protects like his sister.

You clearly have no grasp on torture nor the inner workings of the charachters if you think Theon cracked because hes a coward and Sandor Clegane is a rock.

:agree: 100% with you well said.

Kingpin,

As to your views on Sandor and Theon, I would remind you that one of the major themes in this story is "things may not be as they seem". Keep that in mind here... as with any story that is only about 1/3 told.

Also remember, Sandor didn't "Stand up and die like a man" at the Blackwater. He turned tail, forswore his holy vow, and ran.... Now he has a 10 year old girl hostage and plans to sell her to distant cousins.

I agree with the first point you made, but not about Sandor at Blackwater. It just shows that Sandor cracked, first of all Sandor only has one fear, fire. And being the amount of fire that was at Blackwater you could see why it could take a man with a deep ingrained fear of it, over the edge. Second, Sandor litterately doesn't give a shit about knights and there vows, infact he hates them, all Sandor see when he see a knight is a killer, nothing more nothing less. The fact that his big brother is a knight even enforces this hate even more, he knows what the Mountain is about and is disgusted by the fact any one can call knights honourable. Third, he simple had enough of the Lannisters especially Joffery. A boy king who treats him like a dog of his title; The Hound. Whats more this boy tortures a naive little girl who dreams about knights in shining armour, who has lost her family, he also didn't just ran away, he asked Sansa to come with him, she says no. So Sandor couldn't even be a "knight in shining armour" to a girl who still believes in them. What did Sandor have left in King's Landing?

I also wouldn't call Arya a hostage. Sandor may shout, threaten and warn her, but he has never hit her (sadly he did hit her in the show and stole from a little girls father :frown5: ), never let harm come to her and after all the Lannisters are looking for her to lock her up in a tower with her sister. In a war torn land. Now am not saying he perfect by any means (who is?), but he is imo one of the closet things to an actual "story book knight" in the books. Just he isn't beautiful, isn't even a knight and no one would even think of him in that light in aSoIaF.

Honestly, Sandor has been one of my most hated things I hate about this show.

[Raffles]

The problem with Yara in this scene is this;

1) She knew Theon was a lost cause - fine.

2) She had only a handful of men with her at the end - fine.

but...

3) A poor soldier such as Ramsay didn't get harmed, despite having no armour on - not cool.

4) Yara and her men held the upper hand at the end of the scene and didn't kill Ramsay - not cool.

5) They just stood there and gawped whilst Ramsay made his "Release the hounds.." threat - not cool.

So, overall, we appreciate that the Theon/Reek situation was being clarified even more (despite the later bath scene proving to be more than adequate imo), but it's the fact the Ramsay was allowed to fight with no armour on (and not get a scratch mind you.. not even a fucking nick) despite being in close quarters to some of the most ruthless Ironborn Yara had at her disposal (real tough men.. not squeamish amateurs caught out of their depth).. this is the issue. Yara would've fought tooth and nail, not stood there gawping as Ramsay monologued without a care in the world... the mere threat of him releasing the hounds should have required her immediate attention in dispatching Ramsay asap.. but no.. he was allowed to spend plenty of time talking up his threat.

The only thing missing from this scene was some good old Benny Hill music. This is, without a doubt in my mind, the worst scene in GoT that I've seen so far. There's no excuse for it. I'm just going to trawl the internet now and see what the tv critics said about it. I'm guessing their words won't be pretty..