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igrewupinKL

Varamyr Prologue- points to wight intelligence? [ADWD spoilers]

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If you have not read through ADWD please do not read further, And also if this has been done before, let me know however i'd like to reopen discussion about it. Also posted this under still reading ADWD before realising it probably goes here. I'm new if you can't tell haha



So there has been threads on Varamyr and his warging abilities, his thoughts on dying (which i find particularly interesting) and his life etc


Then right at the end, when he finds his wolf pack and slips into Sly as he dies, he witnesses Thistle (who was looking after him, and who he tried to warg into but failed) turn into a wight:



"Pale pink icicles hung from her fingertips, ten long knives of frozen blood. and in the pits where her eyes had been, a pale blue light was flickering, lending her coarse features and eerie beauty they had never known in life".



This is all well and good. We know what happens when someone dies and is brought back by a White Walker (WW). However the interesting part is Varamyr's response to her staring gaze:



"She sees me."



Now this could well be paranoia over the guilt he feels for just killing her. We know she was screaming in agony when he tried to skinchange into her, that Haggon had warned him it was an 'abomination' to do so, and one should not try it. And therefore probably resulted in her death as well as injury i think she was doing to herself as she screamed "get out of my head". The only one we know who can skinchange a human is Bran, but even then, he's only done that to Hodor who is 'simple'.


What I think one could actually assume from this is that wight's actually have:



1.) Some sort of memory/ intelligence left over


2.) They can sense when creatures have wargs/skinchangers in them



1. Memory/ intelligence left over


So, evidence for this is also backed up by Jon, who says (not exact quote) that the wights who attacked Lord Commander Mormont in aGoT must have some sort of memory left over since they knew how to find his chambers. Jon as LC then uses this thinking to justify locking 2 wights in the ice cells in order to study them.



How? Well a possible theory could be that when a person dies, the WW could have access to past memories and use these to manipulate the wight into doing their deeds. In a magical world such as ASOIAF, it is not impossible that a WW could gain information from a dead wights brain, since i doubt a former man of the nights watch would attempt an assasination on the LC, unless forced to do so, or unless he's one of those a-holes in Craster's keep. but this was before Mormont decided to go north and they weren't hungry/starved.



Unfortunately we know little about the WW and how far their abilities extend other than necromancy and now *show spoiler* turning Crasters' baby boys into WW though this was done by another breed, possibly the Night's King.



2. Wights/WW can sense wargs inside animals


This is possible, here's why. Note i can't provide evidence because we haven't learned enough about WW and this is mere speculation based on other information



So Varamyr claims, Wight Thistle can 'see' him, even though he's inside his wolf Sly now.



Varamyr also believes that Warging/Skinchanging is a "gift from the old gods". We know that the CoTF and Bloodraven are highly connected to the 'old gods' and BR is a skinchanger and CoTF are magical beings.


The CoTF supposedly helped build the wall to keep the WW out, is it possible they also created a magic whereby humans could warg into other animals around the time of the first men? Why is the symbol of House Stark a direwolf? Was this the animal chosen by the first Stark Kings? I think that wargs may have some significance to do with the WW, therefore a reason why WW may be able to sense a warg, especially a powerful skinchanger like Varamyr. And probably why a skinchanger must be in the position where BR is. It is possible that BR may choose people to become wargs/skinchangers and then the CoTF make this happen.



What if WW are actually super skinchangers, who actually warg humans? This could be why they are seen or considered as evil by the old gods. This could also explain why they'd have access to past memories and are able to control them. We also know that wights eyes turn the same colour as a WW. When Bran wargs in the show, his eyes go milky and Hodor's eyes temporarily go milky too, but i can't remember how this is described in the book as we only see this through Bran's eyes and he is skinchanging so couldn't describe it.



However, yet again we know little about the powers of 'the old gods' or whether they exist or what they really are. My feeling is the 'Old Gods' are the weirwood trees and refer to the person (BR) overseeing them. We also know little about the powers of the CoTF, but we can assume they possess powerful magic, since they are probably responsible for protecting BR's cave from WW and supposedly behind the magic of the wall. I think somehow their magic is connected to the weirwoods.



This post is turning out to be longer than i thought, i'm sure there are more quotes out there to support these theories, so please feel free to share them as well as your thoughts about why wargs exist, what they could possibly have to do with the WW, CoTF, the old gods and on the intelligence of wights



Hope this isn't too 'crackpot'. I feel in WoW we will see some more evidence about the powers of WW.


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very interesting points, i also pointed out the "White Walker trojan horse operation" at castle black in my WW origins thread as well. I said WW trojan horse operation not wight trojan horse operation because i believe the WW (like Bran with Summer/Hodor ect.) warg into the wights. In the tv series the wights have the same white eyes as Hodor had in the last episode when he killed Locke. I think it's possible either the Night's King or a WW was warging with the wight that entered Mormont's chambers. -Also i believe they are all connected, all the wights and WW's are "linked", the WW's can pick any of their wights to warg.


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very interesting points, i also pointed out the "White Walker trojan horse operation" at castle black in my WW origins thread as well. I said WW trojan horse operation not wight trojan horse operation because i believe the WW (like Bran with Summer/Hodor ect.) warg into the wights. In the tv series the wights have the same white eyes as Hodor had in the last episode when he killed Locke. I think it's possible either the Night's King or a WW was warging with the wight that entered Mormont's chambers. -Also i believe they are all connected, all the wights and WW's are "linked", the WW's can pick any of their wights to warg.

Thats what I think as well, that the WW can pick the wights they reanimate and can work them at will. or in small groups.

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I'm glad to see some responses, i thought people may have thought i was crazy or something



I agree there's something about WW controlling dead people, they must have some sort of insight into the person they are entering (i believe its warging), it just makes sense, I mean how could they know where the LC was?


If it was the night's king controlling the wight that attacked Mormont, that would probably detract from my theory that WW can access past memories of wights, because he was a former night's watch LC wasn't he? he'd probably know where the LC chambers were. Unless of course, at his time the NW was located at a different castle (which i think they were).



If you follow on that WW can warg, do you think they can sense other wargs? like i pointed out in the opening statement, Varamyr thought thistle could 'see' him. I really feel like there is a connection between WW main ability to be warging, and the 'old gods/magic' choosing special people to have warging abilities. I think warging abilities will prove to be useful in the fight against the WW.



Then there's Coldhands. What is he? I think its pretty obvious he is a warg, having control of his elk. He has the characteristics of a wight, except the eyes but he controls his own destiny. (Or does he? i guess is the other question). My guess is he is like an intermediate between a wight and human. It occured how? being a warg has something to do with it


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I'm glad to see some responses, i thought people may have thought i was crazy or something

I agree there's something about WW controlling dead people, they must have some sort of insight into the person they are entering (i believe its warging), it just makes sense, I mean how could they know where the LC was?

If it was the night's king controlling the wight that attacked Mormont, that would probably detract from my theory that WW can access past memories of wights, because he was a former night's watch LC wasn't he? he'd probably know where the LC chambers were. Unless of course, at his time the NW was located at a different castle (which i think they were).

If you follow on that WW can warg, do you think they can sense other wargs? like i pointed out in the opening statement, Varamyr thought thistle could 'see' him. I really feel like there is a connection between WW main ability to be warging, and the 'old gods/magic' choosing special people to have warging abilities. I think warging abilities will prove to be useful in the fight against the WW.

Then there's Coldhands. What is he? I think its pretty obvious he is a warg, having control of his elk. He has the characteristics of a wight, except the eyes but he controls his own destiny. (Or does he? i guess is the other question). My guess is he is like an intermediate between a wight and human. It occured how? being a warg has something to do with it

I really like your theories. I think Cold Hands may have been a long deceased Night Watch brother who was turned into a wight and than the CotF were able to turn him to a "half wight, half human" creature. I think its a given WW can warg into their wights, as well as they have the crows who they warg into and use them as scouts. Every time a WW has been seen in GoT we hear crows. I think the CotF use the weirwood as a warging device too, i think what they believe to be "old gods" are really CotF who warg into the faces. I think WW are masters at warging, like i said before i think they are "linked" with each other and their wights, plus use crows and perhaps other animals. What are your theories on the relationship between the CotF and the WW's? It seems to me they definitely do not like each other, CotF even allied with men to fight them. -But they seem to share abilities, warging, possibly immortality as well.

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I really like your theories. I think Cold Hands may have been a long deceased Night Watch brother who was turned into a wight and than the CotF were able to turn him to a "half wight, half human" creature. I think its a given WW can warg into their wights, as well as they have the crows who they warg into and use them as scouts. Every time a WW has been seen in GoT we hear crows. I think the CotF use the weirwood as a warging device too, i think what they believe to be "old gods" are really CotF who warg into the faces. I think WW are masters at warging, like i said before i think they are "linked" with each other and their wights, plus use crows and perhaps other animals. What are your theories on the relationship between the CotF and the WW's? It seems to me they definitely do not like each other, CotF even allied with men to fight them. -But they seem to share abilities, warging, possibly immortality as well.

I thought the crows were controlled by Bloodraven as a warning that WW are coming. In one of Sam's chapters where a WW tries to get Gilly's baby and gets saved by coldhands there are hundreds of crows sitting on the weirwood tree, but I guess it's not impossible to say the WW could have control of the crows as well...but i think they may have to be dead for a WW to warg them. We know the WW ride dead horses.

I think the person who sits in the great weirwood, like BR, becomes 'the old gods', and i think this is only made possible by the CotF. If the CotF could warg the weirwoods like BR and Bran then why would they need humans? I DO agree that the CotF are behind the magic of the old gods though.

The relationship between the CotF and WW? Well it'll probably require a lot more thinking and a re-read to establish a theory. At the moment I don't think we can be sure. What I think is that the CotF lived alongside the WW, as enemies for years.

It is clear they place a high importance on the weirwood trees and that is probably because the WW cannot touch them (evidence from when they cannot enter the cave, and when jon snow goes ranging to a circle of weirwood trees and someone said WW cannot enter it.). I read somewhere that it is mentioned in the books that the CotF used to develop/mine dragonglass for the NW. So I'd definitely agree that they are enemies. I also think their magic comes from the weirwood trees, and because weirwood trees can survive for thousands of years, so can the CotF.

I think they are in great opposition, in nature. The CotF seem to have magic for life, they are connected to the trees and everything around them and I believe it is them who give humans the ability to warg into alive animals and living things in nature. (Varamyr points out in his chapter, at one stage he was in the weirwood, in the soil etc). WW on the other hand, warg into dead animals and humans and they seem to bring cold and death wherever they go. I believe, as well in opposition, the WW live as long as there is still winter. Which means they cannot be defeated, ever. So like i have no idea, there must be some key to defeating them, thats what the battle for dawn is all about. The CotF are in such little supply that I have no idea how they are going to defeat the WW.

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I thought the crows were controlled by Bloodraven as a warning that WW are coming. In one of Sam's chapters where a WW tries to get Gilly's baby and gets saved by coldhands there are hundreds of crows sitting on the weirwood tree, but I guess it's not impossible to say the WW could have control of the crows as well...but i think they may have to be dead for a WW to warg them. We know the WW ride dead horses.

I think the person who sits in the great weirwood, like BR, becomes 'the old gods', and i think this is only made possible by the CotF. If the CotF could warg the weirwoods like BR and Bran then why would they need humans? I DO agree that the CotF are behind the magic of the old gods though.

The relationship between the CotF and WW? Well it'll probably require a lot more thinking and a re-read to establish a theory. At the moment I don't think we can be sure. What I think is that the CotF lived alongside the WW, as enemies for years.

It is clear they place a high importance on the weirwood trees and that is probably because the WW cannot touch them (evidence from when they cannot enter the cave, and when jon snow goes ranging to a circle of weirwood trees and someone said WW cannot enter it.). I read somewhere that it is mentioned in the books that the CotF used to develop/mine dragonglass for the NW. So I'd definitely agree that they are enemies. I also think their magic comes from the weirwood trees, and because weirwood trees can survive for thousands of years, so can the CotF.

I think they are in great opposition, in nature. The CotF seem to have magic for life, they are connected to the trees and everything around them and I believe it is them who give humans the ability to warg into alive animals and living things in nature. (Varamyr points out in his chapter, at one stage he was in the weirwood, in the soil etc). WW on the other hand, warg into dead animals and humans and they seem to bring cold and death wherever they go. I believe, as well in opposition, the WW live as long as there is still winter. Which means they cannot be defeated, ever. So like i have no idea, there must be some key to defeating them, thats what the battle for dawn is all about. The CotF are in such little supply that I have no idea how they are going to defeat the WW.

There is a theory (i don't buy into it because the CotF fought WW's with the First Men) that the CotF opened up a kind of "pandora's box" when they were at war with the First Men over them destroying the weirwood trees the CotF created the WW's but they were too powerful and they lost their control over them. -My theory is as you know that a Great Other priestess came with the FM and was transformed into a WW by the Great Other. Your right, yes the ravens are used as a warning of the WW's, and CH did use them to protect Gilly from the wights. I really hope GRRM explains the WW's origins, i believe the Great Other has to be behind WW's like R'hllor is behind fire magic/Lord of Light, the Great Other is behind ice magic. -But like R'hllor they both use humans to their own ends, thus WW's were most likely humans who were transformed into ice demons. Or it could be one malevolent god who is using the great battle between fire and ice to destroy humans. -If fire wins whose to say that could be just as harmful as a endless winter? Rivers dry up ect... the land turns into the red waste. Perhaps the CotF are the key to the balance.

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There is a theory (i don't buy into it because the CotF fought WW's with the First Men) that the CotF opened up a kind of "pandora's box" when they were at war with the First Men over them destroying the weirwood trees the CotF created the WW's but they were too powerful and they lost their control over them. -My theory is as you know that a Great Other priestess came with the FM and was transformed into a WW by the Great Other. Your right, yes the ravens are used as a warning of the WW's, and CH did use them to protect Gilly from the wights. I really hope GRRM explains the WW's origins, i believe the Great Other has to be behind WW's like R'hllor is behind fire magic/Lord of Light, the Great Other is behind ice magic. -But like R'hllor they both use humans to their own ends, thus WW's were most likely humans who were transformed into ice demons. Or it could be one malevolent god who is using the great battle between fire and ice to destroy humans. -If fire wins whose to say that could be just as harmful as a endless winter? Rivers dry up ect... the land turns into the red waste. Perhaps the CotF are the key to the balance.

I sort of take the view that, there might not even be any gods. That there is dark magic (The great Other) and light magic (R'hllor) which both have good and bad aspects to them. And thus all religions stem from these two great powers and are represented in every 'religion' in westeros, that the great Other and R'hllor are the two extremes.

eg. In the Seven, the dark magic is manifested into the 'stranger' and light magic is split into the other 6 to represent their lives.

It also seems peculiar that Asshai, which seems to be the center for fire magic, is practically opposite in the map to the Land of Always winter, which seems to be the center of ice magic. I think the geography speaks for itself.

I don't really buy into the theory that CotF created the WW because i think they stem from something deeper. The CotF mostly seem to do natural magic in other words things to do with nature/ earth. If it so happens that they did create the WW then i'd definitely expect a full story about it from GRRM. I'd expect the WW origin story regardless, from GRRM haha

Your theory on an FM priestess turning into a WW is possible, but it seems unlikely the CotF would turn someone into something that could destroy them, and possibly the world. However the WW must have some relationship with humans, as the Night's King was somehow possible and craster's babies somehow turn into them.

Regardless of our speculation, the CotF must hold the key to some sort of knowledge or magic. It seems quite odd to me that they have the ability to evade the WW, i mean i've never heard of a WW killing a CotF. It could be because they were their creators. It could also be, because the WW view anyone as human not a natural habitant of westeros, whereas the CotF were.

So much theorising hurts my brain. I want WOW :crying: . And i want beyond the wall chapters :bawl:

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I sort of take the view that, there might not even be any gods. That there is dark magic (The great Other) and light magic (R'hllor) which both have good and bad aspects to them. And thus all religions stem from these two great powers and are represented in every 'religion' in westeros, that the great Other and R'hllor are the two extremes.

eg. In the Seven, the dark magic is manifested into the 'stranger' and light magic is split into the other 6 to represent their lives.

It also seems peculiar that Asshai, which seems to be the center for fire magic, is practically opposite in the map to the Land of Always winter, which seems to be the center of ice magic. I think the geography speaks for itself.

I don't really buy into the theory that CotF created the WW because i think they stem from something deeper. The CotF mostly seem to do natural magic in other words things to do with nature/ earth. If it so happens that they did create the WW then i'd definitely expect a full story about it from GRRM. I'd expect the WW origin story regardless, from GRRM haha

Your theory on an FM priestess turning into a WW is possible, but it seems unlikely the CotF would turn someone into something that could destroy them, and possibly the world. However the WW must have some relationship with humans, as the Night's King was somehow possible and craster's babies somehow turn into them.

Regardless of our speculation, the CotF must hold the key to some sort of knowledge or magic. It seems quite odd to me that they have the ability to evade the WW, i mean i've never heard of a WW killing a CotF. It could be because they were their creators. It could also be, because the WW view anyone as human not a natural habitant of westeros, whereas the CotF were.

So much theorising hurts my brain. I want WOW :crying: . And i want beyond the wall chapters :bawl:

beyond the wall chapters are the best! :) Seems like GoT will overtake beyond the wall stories in the books next season..

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I sort of take the view that, there might not even be any gods. That there is dark magic (The great Other) and light magic (R'hllor) which both have good and bad aspects to them. And thus all religions stem from these two great powers and are represented in every 'religion' in westeros, that the great Other and R'hllor are the two extremes.

eg. In the Seven, the dark magic is manifested into the 'stranger' and light magic is split into the other 6 to represent their lives.

It also seems peculiar that Asshai, which seems to be the center for fire magic, is practically opposite in the map to the Land of Always winter, which seems to be the center of ice magic. I think the geography speaks for itself.

I don't really buy into the theory that CotF created the WW because i think they stem from something deeper. The CotF mostly seem to do natural magic in other words things to do with nature/ earth. If it so happens that they did create the WW then i'd definitely expect a full story about it from GRRM. I'd expect the WW origin story regardless, from GRRM haha

Your theory on an FM priestess turning into a WW is possible, but it seems unlikely the CotF would turn someone into something that could destroy them, and possibly the world. However the WW must have some relationship with humans, as the Night's King was somehow possible and craster's babies somehow turn into them.

Regardless of our speculation, the CotF must hold the key to some sort of knowledge or magic. It seems quite odd to me that they have the ability to evade the WW, i mean i've never heard of a WW killing a CotF. It could be because they were their creators. It could also be, because the WW view anyone as human not a natural habitant of westeros, whereas the CotF were.

So much theorising hurts my brain. I want WOW :crying: . And i want beyond the wall chapters :bawl:

I believe in the two opposites, being it North/South, Ice/Fire, Night/Day, Darkness/Light, Death/Life, ... the basic Yng/Yang

The duality is something particular to human beings, and it's everywhere in the story. The choices of those who operate this power that determine how the balance is set, and the balance is being upset.

About the WW/Wights and wargs, I believe the Wights work in a kind of Hive Mind with the Others (like the Lich King for those who played Warcraft games), so there's no need of warging.

Also I believe the Wall is a barrier for magic, keeping it in the North (like Jon can't warg Ghost through the Wall and all), so the undead plague won't spread to the South another time (Long Winter).

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I believe in the two opposites, being it North/South, Ice/Fire, Night/Day, Darkness/Light, Death/Life, ... the basic Yng/Yang

The duality is something particular to human beings, and it's everywhere in the story. The choices of those who operate this power that determine how the balance is set, and the balance is being upset.

About the WW/Wights and wargs, I believe the Wights work in a kind of Hive Mind with the Others (like the Lich King for those who played Warcraft games), so there's no need of warging.

Also I believe the Wall is a barrier for magic, keeping it in the North (like Jon can't warg Ghost through the Wall and all), so the undead plague won't spread to the South another time (Long Winter).

I believe R'hllor and the Great Other are both malevolent deities, or possibly one malevolent deity which is pitting humans against each other (WW's were once humans transformed, Melisandre is some kind of R'hllor fiery priestess, no longer human). Dragons will probably be used by R'hllor to try to defeat the Great Other's servants (WW's), just like the Long Night was being used so WW's could invade Westeros, R'hllor will most likely try to create a "endless summer" (pardon the unintended pun). But a "endless summer" could be just as destructive as a Long Night, think red waste but all of Westeros/Essos.

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I sort of take the view that, there might not even be any gods. That there is dark magic (The great Other) and light magic (R'hllor) which both have good and bad aspects to them. And thus all religions stem from these two great powers and are represented in every 'religion' in westeros, that the great Other and R'hllor are the two extremes.

eg. In the Seven, the dark magic is manifested into the 'stranger' and light magic is split into the other 6 to represent their lives.

It also seems peculiar that Asshai, which seems to be the center for fire magic, is practically opposite in the map to the Land of Always winter, which seems to be the center of ice magic. I think the geography speaks for itself.

I don't really buy into the theory that CotF created the WW because i think they stem from something deeper. The CotF mostly seem to do natural magic in other words things to do with nature/ earth. If it so happens that they did create the WW then i'd definitely expect a full story about it from GRRM. I'd expect the WW origin story regardless, from GRRM haha

Your theory on an FM priestess turning into a WW is possible, but it seems unlikely the CotF would turn someone into something that could destroy them, and possibly the world. However the WW must have some relationship with humans, as the Night's King was somehow possible and craster's babies somehow turn into them.

Regardless of our speculation, the CotF must hold the key to some sort of knowledge or magic. It seems quite odd to me that they have the ability to evade the WW, i mean i've never heard of a WW killing a CotF. It could be because they were their creators. It could also be, because the WW view anyone as human not a natural habitant of westeros, whereas the CotF were.

So much theorising hurts my brain. I want WOW :crying: . And i want beyond the wall chapters :bawl:

WW's believe humans shouldn't inhabit Westeros, interesting but seems like there is more to it than that. If the WW's wanted to kick out men from Westeros than why don't they kill all the wildlings? could it be the WW's might not like the men who abuse the land they inhabit? -Like a evil "force of nature" the WW's represent a tornado, hurricane, volcano. It seems like the WW's have a beef with the Wall, they seem to harass the Night's Watch more than the wildlings. Their trojan horse operation with the wights near the wall, their assault on the Night's Watch camped at the Fist of the First Men. Don't forget everyone saw the red comet which means dragons, the WW's may have seen it as well which means their doom is near if they don't bring down the wall and fight R'hllor's forces.

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beyond the wall chapters are the best! :) Seems like GoT will overtake beyond the wall stories in the books next season..

Yes, and although i'd like to read it first, i'm really enjoying the beyond the wall sequences in the show!

I believe in the two opposites, being it North/South, Ice/Fire, Night/Day, Darkness/Light, Death/Life, ... the basic Yng/Yang

The duality is something particular to human beings, and it's everywhere in the story. The choices of those who operate this power that determine how the balance is set, and the balance is being upset.

About the WW/Wights and wargs, I believe the Wights work in a kind of Hive Mind with the Others (like the Lich King for those who played Warcraft games), so there's no need of warging.

Also I believe the Wall is a barrier for magic, keeping it in the North (like Jon can't warg Ghost through the Wall and all), so the undead plague won't spread to the South another time (Long Winter).

Yeh thats what i was trying to say in my post, that there is a duality, perhaps what a song of ice and fire really means- ice magic (death, cold) in balance with fire magic (heat, life).

If the Others/WW operate in a hive like manner, that would also be cool, but like BR, who can warg multiple crows (i think) it would make sense for wights to have a sort of 'hive' mind, but the ability to actually do that is skinchanging..I don't know, so many unknowns. all we can do is speculate.

If the wall blocks magic, then why were wights able to be awaken to attack the LC Mormont? Maybe WW have found a way to get through the wall if a NW's member lets them through (accessed via the dead NW wights).

WW's believe humans shouldn't inhabit Westeros, interesting but seems like there is more to it than that. If the WW's wanted to kick out men from Westeros than why don't they kill all the wildlings? could it be the WW's might not like the men who abuse the land they inhabit? -Like a evil "force of nature" the WW's represent a tornado, hurricane, volcano. It seems like the WW's have a beef with the Wall, they seem to harass the Night's Watch more than the wildlings. Their trojan horse operation with the wights near the wall, their assault on the Night's Watch camped at the Fist of the First Men. Don't forget everyone saw the red comet which means dragons, the WW's may have seen it as well which means their doom is near if they don't bring down the wall and fight R'hllor's forces.

Yeh i'm just speculating there. But now you said it, there seems to be a preference for turning NW's former members into wights. Perhaps there's some sort of loophole. Like when a wight gets taken behind the wall, a WW is able to control them, bypassing the wall's magic. The trojan horse was definitely an attempt to kill the LC and cause chaos in the NW to break the magic of the wall.. theres some sort of requirement, that the NW must remain together, for the magic to persist. (i read that somewhere but don't know where to find the quote). (helps guys?)

Another thing I wanted to discuss, Night's_King666 , is the horn of joramun. If in fact, a priestess of the Other faith came with the first men, it would make sense for them to hide the horn in the frost fangs (or wherever it was found beyond the wall) as a weapon the WW could use to bring down the wall, if they were on their side. However, why would someone (FM or giant or CotF) hide the horn beyond the wall, when it could destroy the wall? It was used in the time of the night's king to stop the WW. It just doesn't make sense to put it in a place where it could be found by WW.

Had Mance Rayder lied to him, or was Tormund lying now? If Mance’s horn was just a feint, where is the true horn? - Jon Snow

- did mance actually find the horn of joramun, if not where is the true horn? Will the horn actually bring down the wall?

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Yes, and although i'd like to read it first, i'm really enjoying the beyond the wall sequences in the show!

Yeh thats what i was trying to say in my post, that there is a duality, perhaps what a song of ice and fire really means- ice magic (death, cold) in balance with fire magic (heat, life).

If the Others/WW operate in a hive like manner, that would also be cool, but like BR, who can warg multiple crows (i think) it would make sense for wights to have a sort of 'hive' mind, but the ability to actually do that is skinchanging..I don't know, so many unknowns. all we can do is speculate.

If the wall blocks magic, then why were wights able to be awaken to attack the LC Mormont? Maybe WW have found a way to get through the wall if a NW's member lets them through (accessed via the dead NW wights).

Yeh i'm just speculating there. But now you said it, there seems to be a preference for turning NW's former members into wights. Perhaps there's some sort of loophole. Like when a wight gets taken behind the wall, a WW is able to control them, bypassing the wall's magic. The trojan horse was definitely an attempt to kill the LC and cause chaos in the NW to break the magic of the wall.. theres some sort of requirement, that the NW must remain together, for the magic to persist. (i read that somewhere but don't know where to find the quote). (helps guys?)

Another thing I wanted to discuss, Night's_King666 , is the horn of joramun. If in fact, a priestess of the Other faith came with the first men, it would make sense for them to hide the horn in the frost fangs (or wherever it was found beyond the wall) as a weapon the WW could use to bring down the wall, if they were on their side. However, why would someone (FM or giant or CotF) hide the horn beyond the wall, when it could destroy the wall? It was used in the time of the night's king to stop the WW. It just doesn't make sense to put it in a place where it could be found by WW.

Had Mance Rayder lied to him, or was Tormund lying now? If Mance’s horn was just a feint, where is the true horn? - Jon Snow

- did mance actually find the horn of joramun, if not where is the true horn? Will the horn actually bring down the wall?

i think the CotF most likely had a hand in the creation of the horn of winter, the wildlings called upon the giants to help fight the WW's. It's possible they gave it back to the CotF at some point in time which is why no-one has found it yet plus i'm sure the CotF can protect it from the WW's. The horn of winter could be the CotF "failsafe", if they cannot stop the WW's (through Bran) than they might turn the horn over to summon the giants or possibly bring down the wall but not for the WW's but for an army of men who are willing to fight the WW's (Stannis??). I think if the WW's had the horn of winter they would have brought down the wall by now, i think its obvious the White Walkers have built-up their forces over the past few thousand years. Now i doubt this will happen but wouldn't it be awesome if GoT did a "chronicle" of the WW's but only since the beginning of the first season. It shows the Night's King at the Land of Always Winter, his eyes maybe turn a dark shade of blue and suddenly he is warging into the wight at castle black who tried to kill Mormont, the wight is burned by Jon Snow, the Night's King now knows who Jon Snow looks like. It shows the Night's King looking up at the red comet (dragons i'm sure terrifies them), the Night's King tells the WW Sam slays; "R'hllor has returned." It shows the WW leading out a host of wights but are sidetracked at the Fist. Either this season or next season ends with the Night's King himself on-top of a snowbear-wight leading a host of actual WW's this time. -Yeah right lol but hey you never know...

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i think the CotF most likely had a hand in the creation of the horn of winter, the wildlings called upon the giants to help fight the WW's. It's possible they gave it back to the CotF at some point in time which is why no-one has found it yet plus i'm sure the CotF can protect it from the WW's. The horn of winter could be the CotF "failsafe", if they cannot stop the WW's (through Bran) than they might turn the horn over to summon the giants or possibly bring down the wall but not for the WW's but for an army of men who are willing to fight the WW's (Stannis??). I think if the WW's had the horn of winter they would have brought down the wall by now, i think its obvious the White Walkers have built-up their forces over the past few thousand years. Now i doubt this will happen but wouldn't it be awesome if GoT did a "chronicle" of the WW's but only since the beginning of the first season. It shows the Night's King at the Land of Always Winter, his eyes maybe turn a dark shade of blue and suddenly he is warging into the wight at castle black who tried to kill Mormont, the wight is burned by Jon Snow, the Night's King now knows who Jon Snow looks like. It shows the Night's King looking up at the red comet (dragons i'm sure terrifies them), the Night's King tells the WW Sam slays; "R'hllor has returned." It shows the WW leading out a host of wights but are sidetracked at the Fist. Maybe ends with the Night's King himself on-top of a snowbear-wight leading a host of actual WW's this time.

chronicles of the night's king! I would so watch that. It could be like a mini-series about the FM, but at the beginning you see the battle at the fist and then it goes back in time.

Yeh the CotF keeping the horn is probably the best explanation for where it is, because as i stated above it wouldn't make sense for it to be out in the open/unprotected for the WW to find.

Do you think Bran is the key to defeating the WW? that could be very cool. I really think the WW are going to annihilate westeros, as you said they must have an army of hundreds of thousands.

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chronicles of the night's king! I would so watch that. It could be like a mini-series about the FM, but at the beginning you see the battle at the fist and then it goes back in time.

Yeh the CotF keeping the horn is probably the best explanation for where it is, because as i stated above it wouldn't make sense for it to be out in the open/unprotected for the WW to find.

Do you think Bran is the key to defeating the WW? that could be very cool. I really think the WW are going to annihilate westeros, as you said they must have an army of hundreds of thousands.

the series finale (most likely books too but GRRM could do his own thing) will be WW's/wights versus most likely Stannis/Daenerys and her dragons (she'll find dragonbinder). I think Bran will play a major part for events beyond the wall, he's seems very important to the story. If the Night's King is a Stark and he was also named Bran i could some kind of future meeting. We are meant to believe the WW's are evil (they most likely are) but i believe they think they are doing the right thing, they are justified in what they are doing or at least the Great Other is telling them that and R'hllor is telling Melisandre the same thing.

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I naturally associate the ravens/crows with BR/CotF/Coldhands given all the associations throughout the books. Would be weird if they were being warged by both their group and the Others, though it's certainly possible. I agree though that it's hard to pick up the direct connotation of the ravens/crows on the show. I first assumed they were foreshadowing Coldhands but at this point I have no clue if they are supposed to mean any one thing in particular.


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I can't help but believe the wights are controlled by some kind of sentient hive-mind ability and/or being. This perspective is skewed by the show- but it seems when there is a massive army of wights attacking, such as at the Fist, they are being led by only a few WW, which creates an interesting dynamic. Are the wights autonomous and reanimated with a very simple agenda of pursuing warm-blooded beings, are they controlled in squads by WWs, or is there a omniscient being/force behind the scenes (Night's King or something unseen, the great other, just magic?) controlling them via hive-mind?



I guess the wight attack at the wall is quite telling. There was no WW in the direct vicinity, which would leave the autonomy or hive-mind options viable. I really hope these answers are questioned in the later books but I could understand if there is no explicit explanation.


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That's a very interesting theory... One I have not even considered. The WW obviously have some sort of control over the wights, whether it's warging or not we may no more when the two wights in the ice cells awaken.


I thought the ravens were with NK & BR not the WW, but i may be wrong.


Going back to the point of Jon not being able to warg Ghost when the direwolf is beyond the wall. I don't think it would make sense for the WW to be able to warg the wight's south of the wall. whether the wights be NW or otherwise. If it is indeed the magic which stops Jon warging Ghost then surely the magic stops warging fullstop?

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I'm coming to the conclusion that this is just one thing best not to over-think. The wights are probably just simple-minded drones, reanimated and ready to go. No need to nit-pick the details, though I can't help but wonder....


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