Varamyr Prologue- points to wight intelligence? [ADWD spoilers]

[Night's_King666]

That's a very interesting theory... One I have not even considered. The WW obviously have some sort of control over the wights, whether it's warging or not we may no more when the two wights in the ice cells awaken.

I thought the ravens were with NK & BR not the WW, but i may be wrong.

Going back to the point of Jon not being able to warg Ghost when the direwolf is beyond the wall. I don't think it would make sense for the WW to be able to warg the wight's south of the wall. whether the wights be NW or otherwise. If it is indeed the magic which stops Jon warging Ghost then surely the magic stops warging fullstop?

Bran wargs way before they went beyond the wall. The WW's can warg into the wights, they created them (resurrected them) surely they can control them. They want to use the wights to go beyond the wall (southern direction), the wights were taken to castle black where the WW's most likely warged and tried to kill Mormont.

[igrewupinKL]

The Night's_King666 and I as you can see have had a lengthy discussion about this. I'll just reiterate some points in response. But as mentioned probably several times, we can't know for sure...Hopefully answers will come in WOW.

I naturally associate the ravens/crows with BR/CotF/Coldhands given all the associations throughout the books. Would be weird if they were being warged by both their group and the Others, though it's certainly possible. I agree though that it's hard to pick up the direct connotation of the ravens/crows on the show. I first assumed they were foreshadowing Coldhands but at this point I have no clue if they are supposed to mean any one thing in particular.

Yes, I also think that the crows are warged only by BR or coldhands through magic created by the CotF. I probably should add it to the opening post, but i think the WW can only warg dead things and that's one reason why they may be considered evil, because their magic is unnatural (as opposed to the CotF). I think the crows are used as a warning that WW are coming, if you notice whenever there are crows cawing, it signals just before a WW comes (in seasons 3 and 4).

I can't help but believe the wights are controlled by some kind of sentient hive-mind ability and/or being. This perspective is skewed by the show- but it seems when there is a massive army of wights attacking, such as at the Fist, they are being led by only a few WW, which creates an interesting dynamic. Are the wights autonomous and reanimated with a very simple agenda of pursuing warm-blooded beings, are they controlled in squads by WWs, or is there a omniscient being/force behind the scenes (Night's King or something unseen, the great other, just magic?) controlling them via hive-mind?

I guess the wight attack at the wall is quite telling. There was no WW in the direct vicinity, which would leave the autonomy or hive-mind options viable. I really hope these answers are questioned in the later books but I could understand if there is no explicit explanation.

Yeh the idea of a hive-mind is very possible, and one i'm really inclined to believe. However I think their ability to enter someone else's mind to control them, is similar to the stark's warging ability. I think it's pretty clear that the wights are finely controlled by the WW when they need them to be. The wights didn't just head for anyone warm-blooded, they clearly went straight for the LC's chambers and only stopped when Jon confronted them. Could the WW set objectives for the wights? If so that could answer a lot of questions...but they'd have to be awaken by something. We don't know if there was a WW in the vicinity, in fact we don't know how they travel. They seem to just appear sometimes, so this may suggest something about their power. Nonetheless, I think by letting the dead NW men into the south of the wall, it created a loophole in the magic, by which the WW were able to warg or control the wights. Because you're right, Jon Snow couldn't warg ghost when ghost was beyond the wall. I'm just wondering if this sudden surge of power of the WW closely coincided with the birth of Dany's dragons. Because if you believe in a dual magic world, then increasing power in one domain (ice) will increase power in the other (fire). just a thought.

That's a very interesting theory... One I have not even considered. The WW obviously have some sort of control over the wights, whether it's warging or not we may no more when the two wights in the ice cells awaken.

I thought the ravens were with NK & BR not the WW, but i may be wrong.

Going back to the point of Jon not being able to warg Ghost when the direwolf is beyond the wall. I don't think it would make sense for the WW to be able to warg the wight's south of the wall. whether the wights be NW or otherwise. If it is indeed the magic which stops Jon warging Ghost then surely the magic stops warging fullstop?

Yeh i've considered this. Jon south of the wall wasn't able to warg ghost beyond the wall. Is it actually said that he can't? Or did he not just think about it (he was busy at the time). If warging can't cross the wall, then why is Bran able to warg the tree in winterfell? (or whatever it is that he does. I recall he drank some special paste before doing it. Maybe thats the key?) And also, even if the WW don't warg, then how were they able to control the wights when they were south of the wall? My theory is that, letting the dead NW men through created some sort of loophole and the WW realised they could control them. Also the WW may have had a surge in power to do it, this happened before the dragons, so possibly a cause for the birth of dragons (surge in power of ice magic causes a surge in power of the opposite, fire, dualism theory). Otherwise i think the warging-cant-cross-the-wall theory is not true.

I'm coming to the conclusion that this is just one thing best not to over-think. The wights are probably just simple-minded drones, reanimated and ready to go. No need to nit-pick the details, though I can't help but wonder....

Yeh this is exactly the dilemma, the more you think about it the more crackpot you think you sound. But, the thing is most of these things are possible. We just need more evidence from WOW to shape our theories better. There's just a lack of evidence. Speculating is fun though! As stated above, wights may be simple-minded drones now, but its clear the WW have more control over them, possibly gaining access to their memories, than you think.

[Hanzo Hasashi]

Yeh this is exactly the dilemma, the more you think about it the more crackpot you think you sound. But, the thing is most of these things are possible. We just need more evidence from WOW to shape our theories better. There's just a lack of evidence. Speculating is fun though! As stated above, wights may be simple-minded drones now, but its clear the WW have more control over them, possibly gaining access to their memories, than you think.

Man I'd love a full detailed explanation by GRRM but I'm just not sure if he'll give us one yah know? But we can hope!

Edit: Imagine a White Walker POV, hah!

[igrewupinKL]

Yeh i think everyone would love a detailed description from GRRM

A WW POV would be amazing, it would be fun to have it in the prologue/epilogue but can they die? haha it would ruin the trend

[veto]

or wights are being warged

[igrewupinKL]

or wights are being warged

wot

[Lord Dragon Slayer]

Yeh i've considered this. Jon south of the wall wasn't able to warg ghost beyond the wall. Is it actually said that he can't? Or did he not just think about it (he was busy at the time). If warging can't cross the wall, then why is Bran able to warg the tree in winterfell? (or whatever it is that he does. I recall he drank some special paste before doing it. Maybe thats the key?) And also, even if the WW don't warg, then how were they able to control the wights when they were south of the wall? My theory is that, letting the dead NW men through created some sort of loophole and the WW realised they could control them. Also the WW may have had a surge in power to do it, this happened before the dragons, so possibly a cause for the birth of dragons (surge in power of ice magic causes a surge in power of the opposite, fire, dualism theory). Otherwise i think the warging-cant-cross-the-wall theory is not true.

I guess because the CotF helped create the wall they will know how to bypass the magic in order to warg with the wall inbetween??

That's a good point maybe the paste helps overcome this?

Not so sure about the NW being a loophole... surely Jon apart of the NW should be able to Warg Ghost then?

Hopefully we should understand more in later books

[veto]

wot

"she see's me" , cant skinchangers can see other skinchangers in animals? , if someone(white walker) was just warging her dead body , then you could assume thats why she see's him

[igrewupinKL]

"she see's me" , cant skinchangers can see other skinchangers in animals? , if someone(white walker) was just warging her dead body , then you could assume thats why she see's him

Yeh, there's no direct evidence that skinchangers can sense other skinchagers. Varamyr could sense Jon was a warg because there was a big direwolf following him lol, but in terms of when they are actually in another animal, its just speculation.

[spunken en eggs]

there is no mention of commands from the white walkers during the attack on the fist but there is a coordinated attack.

so they do communicate ( telepathy)

in the prologe from book one we know they do talk ( it sounds like ice cracking) en " lough" in the same sounds.

the trojan wights have a plan but don't seem to comunicate (warn/help ethother).

so wights cant communicate ( maybe only inside the wall)

this suggest there is no hive mind, they would warn help the other when jon comes.

so WW have control over wights over long distance en number, but not in en beyond the wall

i think when varamyr sees here loking at him it can max be a ww looking trough the corpse, if "she" was stil in there " she" would not just look at him, but curse him to the others.

as i see it its more like the see the great others will in the ice, like the red priest in the flame, but there is ice every where so its not so confusing.

this would explain dark-hands looking in the night all the time, communing whit god.

so i say, the wights are remote controlled, the WW talk tho the great other/ nigth king though the ice.

btw we don't know it they talk to a god though those flames, could be a " great not other" in ashai is telling them what to do. maybe crackpod...

[Night's_King666]

there is no mention of commands from the white walkers during the attack on the fist but there is a coordinated attack.

so they do communicate ( telepathy)

in the prologe from book one we know they do talk ( it sounds like ice cracking) en " lough" in the same sounds.

the trojan wights have a plan but don't seem to comunicate (warn/help ethother).

so wights cant communicate ( maybe only inside the wall)

this suggest there is no hive mind, they would warn help the other when jon comes.

so WW have control over wights over long distance en number, but not in en beyond the wall

i think when varamyr sees here loking at him it can max be a ww looking trough the corpse, if "she" was stil in there " she" would not just look at him, but curse him to the others.

as i see it its more like the see the great others will in the ice, like the red priest in the flame, but there is ice every where so its not so confusing.

this would explain dark-hands looking in the night all the time, communing whit god.

so i say, the wights are remote controlled, the WW talk tho the great other/ nigth king though the ice.

btw we don't know it they talk to a god though those flames, could be a " great not other" in ashai is telling them what to do. maybe crackpod...

not sure about that, i mean there is no evidence to know if the WW's can warg with their wights, it doesn't say if they can or can't yet. I'm pretty sure they can or at least the WW's command them, at the Fist it did seem like it was a coordinated attack to me. -It was a ambush.

[igrewupinKL]

there is no mention of commands from the white walkers during the attack on the fist but there is a coordinated attack.

so they do communicate ( telepathy)

in the prologe from book one we know they do talk ( it sounds like ice cracking) en " lough" in the same sounds.

the trojan wights have a plan but don't seem to comunicate (warn/help ethother).

so wights cant communicate ( maybe only inside the wall)

this suggest there is no hive mind, they would warn help the other when jon comes.

so WW have control over wights over long distance en number, but not in en beyond the wall

i think when varamyr sees here loking at him it can max be a ww looking trough the corpse, if "she" was stil in there " she" would not just look at him, but curse him to the others.

as i see it its more like the see the great others will in the ice, like the red priest in the flame, but there is ice every where so its not so confusing.

this would explain dark-hands looking in the night all the time, communing whit god.

so i say, the wights are remote controlled, the WW talk tho the great other/ nigth king though the ice.

btw we don't know it they talk to a god though those flames, could be a " great not other" in ashai is telling them what to do. maybe crackpod...

That's interesting, i never thought the WW may have a mechanism like the red priests' flames. So you think WW see the 'great others' will in the ice? Its a possibility

I agree mostly with your assessment of the wights, i think what others meant about the hive mind is that the WW is the hub and communicates separately with each of them. I personally think its more to do with warging. The trojan horse operation would have required a WW to be controlling them at the same time. They are not given missions, i don't think the wights have any control over what they are doing, its all the WW. My point is that, the WW could have access to their memories, and thats how they knew where to find the LC. I agree they can't communicate with each other.

i think when varamyr sees here loking at him it can max be a ww looking trough the corpse

This is exactly what i was saying

In terms of co-ordination, it depends on your view if the attack at the fist was co0rdinated. i mean we don't really get to see it fully in the book or the show. The WW definitely have some strategy or ambition though.

[Night's_King666]

That's interesting, i never thought the WW may have a mechanism like the red priests' flames. So you think WW see the 'great others' will in the ice? Its a possibility

I agree mostly with your assessment of the wights, i think what others meant about the hive mind is that the WW is the hub and communicates separately with each of them. I personally think its more to do with warging. The trojan horse operation would have required a WW to be controlling them at the same time. They are not given missions, i don't think the wights have any control over what they are doing, its all the WW. My point is that, the WW could have access to their memories, and thats how they knew where to find the LC. I agree they can't communicate with each other.

i think when varamyr sees here loking at him it can max be a ww looking trough the corpse

This is exactly what i was saying

In terms of co-ordination, it depends on your view if the attack at the fist was co0rdinated. i mean we don't really get to see it fully in the book or the show. The WW definitely have some strategy or ambition though.

i think some of the wights are "zombie like", just wondering around looking for fresh flesh but i think they can be used as a warg by the WW's like at the Fist. It was a coordinated attack and at Castle Black as well.

[Pod The Impaler]

Even in their first attack (on LC Mormont), it was shown that while they are a shell of their former selves, they are limited but not mindless. They went after Mormont specifically, to best harm the Watch.

Does that mean they are individually intelligent, or do they have a hive-like group mind, or are they controlled by the thoughts of some singular malevolent deity ? We do not know.

[igrewupinKL]

i think some of the wights are "zombie like", just wondering around looking for fresh flesh but i think they can be used as a warg by the WW's like at the Fist. It was a coordinated attack and at Castle Black as well.

Even in their first attack (on LC Mormont), it was shown that while they are a shell of their former selves, they are limited but not mindless. They went after Mormont specifically, to best harm the Watch.

Does that mean they are individually intelligent, or do they have a hive-like group mind, or are they controlled by the thoughts of some singular malevolent deity ? We do not know.

You both raise opposing views on the intelligence of wights.

There's actually something i thought about the other day, the wildlings say to Jon about Qhorin, 'you better burn him, don't want that one coming back after you' and also, in the books i remember Osha recalling the story of her husband/man becoming a wight, and that he came back for her and she only escaped by burning the house down. So do wights seem to attack people they once knew?

Now I don't know if Osha's story is just a coincidence. Even if it were true that wights could remember their past lives and attempt to turn people in them into wights, it still poses the question of whether this is actually the wights doing this or is it the WW accessing those memories and using it to do their will. If wights were just equivalent zombies then that would probably go with the theory that its the WW's who control them. However if you think the wights aren't mindless then perhaps they can break free from their control of the WW to do their own will. In Osha's case i'm pretty sure she described her man as having cold blue eyes.

The attack on LC Mormont was clearly initiated by some other force, as they were just dead bodies, (even Sam noticed they were unusually preserved) but they didn't have the characteristic eyes of wights. When the WW 'activated' them they became reanimated with their blue eyes. I think it's pretty obvious that the presence of blue eyes on wights means they are being controlled, because coldhands has characteristics of a wight, except the eyes which would suggest he is not linked or controlled by a WW.

Exactly, Pod, we don't know. The thing is GRRM hasn't explored them enough for us to gather evidence for or against the argument that wights have their own intelligence (somewhat although still controlled) or whether they are solely controlled by the WW. Which is why this thread quickly died in activity, because its just speculation.

[Night's_King666]

You both raise opposing views on the intelligence of wights.

There's actually something i thought about the other day, the wildlings say to Jon about Qhorin, 'you better burn him, don't want that one coming back after you' and also, in the books i remember Osha recalling the story of her husband/man becoming a wight, and that he came back for her and she only escaped by burning the house down. So do wights seem to attack people they once knew?

Now I don't know if Osha's story is just a coincidence. Even if it were true that wights could remember their past lives and attempt to turn people in them into wights, it still poses the question of whether this is actually the wights doing this or is it the WW accessing those memories and using it to do their will. If wights were just equivalent zombies then that would probably go with the theory that its the WW's who control them. However if you think the wights aren't mindless then perhaps they can break free from their control of the WW to do their own will. In Osha's case i'm pretty sure she described her man as having cold blue eyes.

The attack on LC Mormont was clearly initiated by some other force, as they were just dead bodies, (even Sam noticed they were unusually preserved) but they didn't have the characteristic eyes of wights. When the WW 'activated' them they became reanimated with their blue eyes. I think it's pretty obvious that the presence of blue eyes on wights means they are being controlled, because coldhands has characteristics of a wight, except the eyes which would suggest he is not linked or controlled by a WW.

Exactly, Pod, we don't know. The thing is GRRM hasn't explored them enough for us to gather evidence for or against the argument that wights have their own intelligence (somewhat although still controlled) or whether they are solely controlled by the WW. Which is why this thread quickly died in activity, because its just speculation.

Winds of Winter GRRM said there will be more WW's revelations.

[Good Guy Garlan]

My impression is that it's something similar to Bloodraven seeing Mel through the flames, or Bran and BR being able to see through the weirwoods or the eyes of animals.

Maybe the Great Other (if it exists) can see through the eyes of the wights...Like Zero and the Twelve, for those who have read "The Passage" and "The Twelve"

[igrewupinKL]

My impression is that it's something similar to Bloodraven seeing Mel through the flames, or Bran and BR being able to see through the weirwoods or the eyes of animals.

Maybe the Great Other (if it exists) can see through the eyes of the wights...Like Zero and the Twelve, for those who have read "The Passage" and "The Twelve"

Yeh i'd have to agree

I have a feeling the WW revelation will be what we saw in this season, about craster's sons. But hopefully there is more

[Greymoon]

I think that what the WW do is similar to skinchanging, but it's not skinchanging. They take over dead bodies, as far as we've seen, neither Bran nor Bloodraven can slip into dead bodies.

When a skinchanger slips into another skin -- the consciousness of the animal fades away but it lingers at the back (and depending on the animal, its presence is more or less strong -- there's a struggle of consciousnesses between the human and animal mind. IIRC, slipping into the skin of an animal that was "used" in the past is easier than taking over one who has never been subdued.). All the same if another skinchanger controlled the animal before -- he/her leaves an imprint of their own in the animal.

Haggon says:

"When the man's flesh dies, his spirit lives on inside the beast, but everyday his memory fades, and the beast becomes a little less a warg, a little more a wolf, until nothing of the man is left and only the beast remains."

aDwD p. 12 hardcover

Once an animal has been joined to a man, any skinchanger can slip inside and ride him. The joining works both ways, however, for a dead skinchanger's animal carries a part of him and the new master of the beast will find the dead man's voice whispering to him (III: 835)

from http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Concordance/Section/14.1.2./

I think when a WW takes over a dead body the memories of the former living being remains; but there is no human consciousness to speak of. IMO, the WW have access to the memories and use them; and while their ability is similar to that of skinchanging, there's a “necromancy” element to it; that skinchangers don’t have; it doesn’t look like human skinchangers could take over a corpse.

“Abomination, he remembered, drowning in blood and pain and madness. When he tried to scream, she spat their tongue out. The white world turned and fell away...”

aDwD p.14 hardcover

Here, Thistle dies and Varamyr’s consciousness is thrown out of her body...tbh, I don't think it's Thistle "seeing" Varamyr at the end of that chapter; but a WW who is "seeing" through her dead eyes and has access to all her memories...

...

On a side note, not all skinchangers are wargs...so I’m not sure the term “warging” should be applied as loosely as it is.

(a human warg is a subcategory of skinchangers who bond with wolves; and the term warg is also applied to the wolf itself (it’s in a Bran chapter – Summer gets recognized as a “warg”...it’s a two way relationship, sort of.)

Wargs are "wolf-brothers" it's a term applied specifically to the skinchanger/wolf relationship. Varamyr makes a difference between wargs and other types of skinchangers:

"Dogs were the easiest beast to bond with. [...] slipping into a dog's skin was like putting on an old boot, its leather softened by wear. As a boot was shaped to accept a foot, a dog was shaped tp accept a collar, even a collar no human eye could see. Wolves were harder. A man might befriend a wolf, even break a wolf, but no man could truly tame a wolf. "Wolves and women wed for life," Haggon often said. "You take one, that's a marriage. The wolf is part of you from that day on, and you're part of him. Both of you will change."

"Once, when Lump was ten, Haggon had taken him to a gathering of such. The wargs were the most numerous in that company, the wolf-brothers, but the boy had found the others stranger and more fascinating."

aDwD, p. 10 hardcover

Skinchanger is a general term, and all wargs are skinchangers. However, a warg is a skinchanger who is bound to a wolf and not some other creature (II: 561, 697. SSM: 1, 2)

from http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Concordance/Section/14.1.2./

plus:

n Norse mythology, a vargr (often anglicised as warg or varg) is a wolf and in particular refers to the wolf Fenrir and his sons Sköll and Hati. Based on this, J. R. R. Tolkien in his fiction used the Old English form warg (other O.E. forms being wearg and wearh) to refer to a wolf-like creature of a particularly evil kind. In Old Norse, vargr is a term for "wolf" (ulfr). The Proto-Germanic *wargaz is related to proto-Iranian *verk "wolf", Avestan vehrka, Mazandarani varg, Zazaki verg, Old Persian varka-, Persian gorg etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warg

[igrewupinKL]

I think that what the WW do is similar to skinchanging, but it's not skinchanging. They take over dead bodies, as far as we've seen, neither Bran nor Bloodraven can slip into dead bodies.

When a skinchanger slips into another skin -- the consciousness of the animal fades away but it lingers at the back (and depending on the animal, its presence is more or less strong -- there's a struggle of consciousnesses between the human and animal mind. IIRC, slipping into the skin of an animal that was "used" in the past is easier than taking over one who has never been subdued.). All the same if another skinchanger controlled the animal before -- he/her leaves an imprint of their own in the animal.

Haggon says:

aDwD p. 12 hardcover

from http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Concordance/Section/14.1.2./

I think when a WW takes over a dead body the memories of the former living being remains; but there is no human consciousness to speak of. IMO, the WW have access to the memories and use them; and while their ability is similar to that of skinchanging, there's a “necromancy” element to it; that skinchangers don’t have; it doesn’t look like human skinchangers could take over a corpse.

aDwD p.14 hardcover

Here, Thistle dies and Varamyr’s consciousness is thrown out of her body...tbh, I don't think it's Thistle "seeing" Varamyr at the end of that chapter; but a WW who is "seeing" through her dead eyes and has access to all her memories...

...

Thanks for the post, I think you're right, what the white walkers do is similar (but not the same) as the ability of wargs/skinchangers. I am aware of the difference between the two (warg/skinchanger) but may of slipped up a few times for convenience. Nevertheless you have put it together eloquently.

I think one of the reasons the white walkers are seen as evil is because they reanimate the dead and control them through skinchanging. As you quoted, Haggon thinks it's an abomination to even skinchange a living human so skinchanging a dead person? that would definitely go against or is in opposition to the rules of 'earth magic' (the magic of CotF/old gods, just how i think of it).

the consciousness of the animal fades away but it lingers at the back

This is actually interesting, you say that the wights have no consciousness but the WW have access to their memories. Because we know the wildling burn their dead for fear that the dead will return to 'haunt' them. The wights may have some consciousness still alive, but it is totally overrun by the WW that the wights just can't overcome it. And yes as i was saying, the WW definitely have some sort of access to past memories, as demonstrated by 1) the trojan horse LC attack and 2) Osha's account of her man coming back to her.

It may of come across differently in the OP, but yes what i was trying to say was the WW could sense the skinchanger, not Thistle herself. So wights could sense these things because they are controlled by WW.