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R+L=J v 81


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It's about as much in your face as the "theory" that Roose Bolton killed Robb Stark. Reread AFfC Brienne VI, it's really blatant. Sandor's untameable horse finds the way to the Quiet Isle (how?), there's a huge novice with a fondness for dogs, and the Elder Brother tells Brienne the Hound is dead - but he also tells her he died himself and seems very much alive.


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I'm curious why you think the books suggest Ned went to KL immediately after ToJ? That's not my reading at all, and it's oft discussed here. I'm more of the opinion that he went to WF first and then took Cat to KL for Robert & Cersei's wedding. But, as the books don't say that either it's merely my theory :D

The books only tell us that Ned and Robert reconcilled after Lyanna's death, true. But Robert views the war (for a big part, IIRC) as having gone to war for Lyanna (of course, we know that wasn't the only reason he went to war). But Robert loved Lyanna and was fighting to get her back, so I find it hard to believe that Ned could get away with taking Lyanna to Winterfell without stopping at KL first, where Robert was. Would Robert truly wed another woman without having seen the body (or the bones) of the woman he loved and lost? I find that hard to believe, which, I guess, makes Ned visiting KL on his way north, my theory :) But if Ned indeed did visit KL on the way north, Wylla and Jon definitly stayed out of sight, since Robert has never seen Wylla, and I doubt Ned would want to wave Jon under Robert's nose (with the images of Rhaenys and Aegon still clearly in his mind).

Also, making multiple stops (no matter if it's for a few days or a few hours) would make it harder to trace where Ned's babe came from, since he could have taken the child aboard at every single stop. If you've only stopped at Starfall, people would me more inclined to put 1+1 together, I think, making the situation for Ned and Jon more dangerous.

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The books only tell us that Ned and Robert reconcilled after Lyanna's death, true. But Robert views the war (for a big part, IIRC) as having gone to war for Lyanna (of course, we know that wasn't the only reason he went to war). But Robert loved Lyanna and was fighting to get her back, so I find it hard to believe that Ned could get away with taking Lyanna to Winterfell without stopping at KL first, where Robert was. Would Robert truly wed another woman without having seen the body (or the bones) of the woman he loved and lost? I find that hard to believe, which, I guess, makes Ned visiting KL on his way north, my theory :) But if Ned indeed did visit KL on the way north, Wylla and Jon definitly stayed out of sight, since Robert has never seen Wylla, and I doubt Ned would want to wave Jon under Robert's nose (with the images of Rhaenys and Aegon still clearly in his mind).

Also, making multiple stops (no matter if it's for a few days or a few hours) would make it harder to trace where Ned's babe came from, since he could have taken the child aboard at every single stop. If you've only stopped at Starfall, people would me more inclined to put 1+1 together, I think, making the situation for Ned and Jon more dangerous.

As the text simply states that they reconciled after Lyanna's death, I think it's most reasonable to think this occurred after the war was over, rather than in the waning days of it. Let's not forget there were still Targaryens on Dragonstone that needed to be dealt with, for instance. Also, I perceive Jon Arryn's hand behind the reconciliation, which would imply that some time passed before it was effected, as it's unlikely Ned had any communication with Lord Arryn whilst in Dorne. Furthermore, Robert paying his respects to Lyanna's when he arrives at WF feels to me like the first time he has had a chance to do so.

I find it very hard to believe that Ned would take baby Jon anywhere near Robert and KL-- exactly because the the images of Rhaenys and Aegon were fresh in his mind. And as we know Wylla was at Starfall to nurse Edric Dayne within three years, I think most believe that the wet-nurse at WF was a completely different person. Again, a case of it being too dangerous to have all the pieces of the puzzle in one place. Finally, isn't it implied that returning from Starfall with a baby and a wet nurse is exactly the reason that many of the WF smallfolk took Jon to be Ned's son by Ashara Dayne?

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As the text simply states that they reconciled after Lyanna's death, I think it's most reasonable to think this occurred after the war was over, rather than in the waning days of it. Let's not forget there were still Targaryens on Dragonstone that needed to be dealt with, for instance. Also, I perceive Jon Arryn's hand behind the reconciliation, which would imply that some time passed before it was effected, as it's unlikely Ned had any communication with Lord Arryn whilst in Dorne. Furthermore, Robert paying his respects to Lyanna's when he arrives at WF feels to me like the first time he has had a chance to do so.

I find it very hard to believe that Ned would take baby Jon anywhere near Robert and KL-- exactly because the the images of Rhaenys and Aegon were fresh in his mind. And as we know Wylla was at Starfall to nurse Edric Dayne within three years, I think most believe that the wet-nurse at WF was a completely different person. Again, a case of it being too dangerous to have all the pieces of the puzzle in one place. Finally, isn't it implied that returning from Starfall with a baby and a wet nurse is exactly the reason that many of the WF smallfolk took Jon to be Ned's son by Ashara Dayne?

But Ned would need a wetnurse for Jon during the journey north, so either Wylla was not the only wetnurse at Starfall, or she accompanied them on the way north, until Ned found another (which he could have done as early as White Harbor), and was then send back south?

And if Ned returning form Starfall with a babe was the reason the story about Ashara came to be, then why are there people who still believe the other stories (the fishermans daughter, or Wylla herself)? I think that must be because there are still other possibilities, which will have been created by the vagueness of the story, and the uncertainty of it all.

What I don't get is this: the story is mostly told to Winterfells smallfolk by Ned's soldiers, but wouldn't they have known that Ashara hadn't been anywhere near Ned after his wedding to Cat?

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It's about as much in your face as the "theory" that Roose Bolton killed Robb Stark. Reread AFfC Brienne VI, it's really blatant. Sandor's untameable horse finds the way to the Quiet Isle (how?), there's a huge novice with a fondness for dogs, and the Elder Brother tells Brienne the Hound is dead - but he also tells her he died himself and seems very much alive.

People who can't accept R+L=J, hmm, they'll likely reject this one as well.

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People who can't accept R+L=J, hmm, they'll likely reject this one as well.

I dont see what there is to reject. It's right there in the writing, clear as day. If people do reject it then they have to come up with a better scenario (of course there are none) as to who this giant man is and how Stranger got out there on his own.

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But Ned would need a wetnurse for Jon during the journey north, so either Wylla was not the only wetnurse at Starfall, or she accompanied them on the way north, until Ned found another (which he could have done as early as White Harbor), and was then send back south?

And if Ned returning form Starfall with a babe was the reason the story about Ashara came to be, then why are there people who still believe the other stories (the fishermans daughter, or Wylla herself)? I think that must be because there are still other possibilities, which will have been created by the vagueness of the story, and the uncertainty of it all.

What I don't get is this: the story is mostly told to Winterfells smallfolk by Ned's soldiers, but wouldn't they have known that Ashara hadn't been anywhere near Ned after his wedding to Cat?

I don't see a problem with Ned finding another nurse who was not Wylla while at Starfall. All it requires is a another woman who has recently had a child or has been lactating continuously for some period of time. Remember when Jon needed a nurse for Gilly's babe at the Wall, two women presented themselves. Surely in a place with a (presumably) higher female population, there'd be options. If Wylla was the story he was going to tell Robert, it just doesn't make sense that he'd keep her around to possibly talk or let slip information to his own people.

Remember that the stories about the fisherman's daughter and Wylla originate in the Vale and Starfall respectively. As far as we know from the Winterfell side, there were been rumors about Ashara which originated with the serving people, who may well have heard them from the Dornish wet nurse. Surely this wouldn't have been Wylla, as she herself appears be the source of Ned Dayne's information. Fwiw, Ned Dayne's "information" could well be his own assumption, as the simple act of the same woman nursing two babes would be enough to make them "milk brothers" His story is certainly confused enough, as he tells Arya about her father's alleged relationship with his aunt in the same breath that he tells her Wylla is Jon's mother.

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I just re-read the portion of Game of Thrones where Ned visits the brothel with Littlefinger before he plans to leave Kings Landing, and it really struck me. As he vowed bring the bastard girl's mother's words to Robert, his thoughts wandered thus...



“I will,” Ned had promised her. That was his curse. Robert would swear undying love and forget them before evenfall, but Ned Stark kept his vows. He thought of the promises he’d made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he’d paid to keep them.



While looking on a bastard, Ned is brought to think of his sister. Then his mind wanders to Rhaegar and wondering if he had been a frequent visitor of the brothels.



It makes sense for this encounter to make him think of Jon, "his" bastard, but not Lyanna and Rhaegar... unless they have something to do with a bastard.



I know this isn't proof, and probably something that has been mentioned in one of the previous 80 versions of this old argument, but as I re-red, it just seems to me so plain and so obvious, that it is hard to ignore... if you look it from a certain point of view, of course.


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I find it very hard to believe that Ned would take baby Jon anywhere near Robert and KL-- exactly because the the images of Rhaenys and Aegon were fresh in his mind. And as we know Wylla was at Starfall to nurse Edric Dayne within three years, I think most believe that the wet-nurse at WF was a completely different person. Again, a case of it being too dangerous to have all the pieces of the puzzle in one place. Finally, isn't it implied that returning from Starfall with a baby and a wet nurse is exactly the reason that many of the WF smallfolk took Jon to be Ned's son by Ashara Dayne?

He could have gone to KL and asked the wetnurse (and Reed) to stay in some inn until he joins them and sail North. KL is also a port.

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I just re-read the portion of Game of Thrones where Ned visits the brothel with Littlefinger before he plans to leave Kings Landing, and it really struck me. As he vowed bring the bastard girl's mother's words to Robert, his thoughts wandered thus...

“I will,” Ned had promised her. That was his curse. Robert would swear undying love and forget them before evenfall, but Ned Stark kept his vows. He thought of the promises he’d made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he’d paid to keep them.

While looking on a bastard, Ned is brought to think of his sister. Then his mind wanders to Rhaegar and wondering if he had been a frequent visitor of the brothels.

It makes sense for this encounter to make him think of Jon, "his" bastard, but not Lyanna and Rhaegar... unless they have something to do with a bastard.

I know this isn't proof, and probably something that has been mentioned in one of the previous 80 versions of this old argument, but as I re-red, it just seems to me so plain and so obvious, that it is hard to ignore... if you look it from a certain point of view, of course.

Lady Gwyn has done a mighty fine analysis of that passage here that's definitely worth a read.

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The app 'confirms' the deaths of Sandor Clegane, Jon Snow, Ashara Dayne.

Sandor Clegane entry... "Place of Death : Riverlands"

Jon Snow entry... "Place of Death : Castle Black"

Ashara Dayne.... "Place of death : Starfall"

Melisandre : "Origin : Asshai"

from the text....

(this proves the app has an element of interpretation)

The app has a problem in that it must abide by 'current canon', like the appendix to some extent, or reveal lots of grrms secrets he has lined up for future books. If we're going to say the app is canon, then look at all of the above and accept it as fact. Sandor and Jon are dead, it's made very clear.

Alternatively - accept that the app not the whole truth and should be treated with suspicion. I know my standards of canon, and I won't take a source which contradicts grrms text as being fact.

Some people want to pick and choose what they take from the app, that's down to personal choice I guess. It's true grrm has had direct input, but be careful with assuming it's all fact i think.

I'm curious why you think the books suggest Ned went to KL immediately after ToJ? That's not my reading at all, and it's oft discussed here. I'm more of the opinion that he went to WF first and then took Cat to KL for Robert & Cersei's wedding. But, as the books don't say that either it's merely my theory :D

As for the app issue, doesn't this:

snapback.png

support yolkboy's point above? That is, we don't know exactly the nature of GRRM's input, so there could be errors of interpretation, plus the app is limited by "current canon" and can only report what the books have told us (or the mysterious, undefined "new information" from GRRM, which I suspect is in the nature of things that will be revealed in the World book) We are not about to get major reveals on theories or mysteries from this tool, and i don't believe it should be used in support of anything. It's a fun reference tool, but really needs to be taken with a large grain of salt. Don't forget that until the release of AFfC, it would have been considered "canon" that the Lannisters killed Jon Arryn ;)

[sarcasm font] Oh, no, no no .... we have to accept the app as basically fact.[/sarcasm font]

Sorry Suzannah, but you so totally proved my point. I tried not too, but confess I wasn't strong enough. I also feel a little guity for accidentally starting this off again (I did start with stating I was happy to assume for that argument that the app data was solid) and then leaving it to others to argue when it turns into a discussion.

Its very simple from my perspective.

The app has new information from GRRM in it. Possibly even 99.9% of the new information is direct from GRRM (I doubt that much, but the argument remains the same whether it is that much or not). But we don't know what is and what isn't, and we don't know what is just 'current canon' (even though we know it isn't really true, like Sandor being dead) and what is real 'new canon'.

So we can't take anything from the app as definitively canon, because we just don't know. Stuff from the app can be a strong indication of likelihood, but it could be any of:

- 'current canon' but actually untrue

- interpretation of other events/facts that makes the most sense and is therefore very highly probable, not not actually confirmed in any way by GRRM as yet (and not important enough to stand out in his screening of the app data)

- canon from the books

- new canon from GRRM direct to the app

Its also possible, I guess, that there are still plain old mistakes - some were found and corrected since its release. I doubt there are more than a handful in the whole thing by now, if any, but there still could be. I'm just as happy to assume that there are none, by now, but the problem is that still doesn't fix the first two categories above.

Frankly, I'm happy to take anything thats completely new 'facts' out of the blue, that don't have any supporting data in the books - like Darkstar's age for example - as canon. There's no other reason I can see to put that sort of thing in the app other than direct data from GRRM.

But anything that could easily be an extrapolation because it simply fits well into other data or puzzles or stories - like Rickard being already on the way to the wedding (it makes logical sense he'd be coming to the wedding and it makes the timeline a fair bit easier to reconcile) leaves me uncertain as to how much it is input from GRRM directly and how much it is 3rd party interpretation that could be scanned over by GRRM and easily missed, or ignored due to being minor or more or less irrelevant in the big scheme of things. Especially stuff thats almost indirect in its presentation. Its probably true, and its probably canon, but we just can't be sure at this stage.

Thank you thank you thank you!

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The official A World of Ice and Fire app.



In addition, as to what's canon and what's not. Ran has confirmed that it all comes from GRRM, so there are no conclusions he and Linda made themselves, that might prove to be wrong in the future. Of course, the information about present asoiaf times cannot start spoiling the mysteries of the story, so of course, Jon is stated as to have died (though he actually may have died). Of course Sandor is stated to have died (because in present asoiaf, his survival is just a theory). But the other things, the things that have already happened, that we know won't have any impact on the story yet to come, that should count as canon. Like the Brandon thing.



Also, Ran himself used new information about Darkstar (his age) to kill two theories about him (one where Aegon was his child with Ashara, the other where he was secretly Aegon himself; he was too young for one, and too old to be the other). That would not be done if it wasn't trustworthy.



As Ran said himself, the stuff in the app that, even though it is provided by GRRM, has the biggest chance to be changed in the future (although it isn't necessary that it ever will change) is the stuff that is located far away, things that happen in Essos (not in the storylines there, but the things about the distant places etc.). The closer the info gets to the current story, to Westeros, according to Ran, the smaller the chance that it will ever be changed.



Of course, until the info appears in the book (either Winds, aDoS, or the World Book) there is still a slight chance that stuff will be changed. But since all the new info the app provides isn't anything drastic, for as far as I can tell, I think we can just trust it.


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He could have gone to KL and asked the wetnurse (and Reed) to stay in some inn until he joins them and sail North. KL is also a port.

Sounds risky, what with the Lannisters and their dogs running around King's Landing. The Lannister son, a sworn brother of the KG, murdered the king. Lannister men brutally murdered Rhaegar's wife and children. KL itself has been brutally sacked. And Robert has immediately accepted these actions on his behalf. I don't think Ned would have gone anywhere near KL with Jon at this point.

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