R+L=J v 81

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Sounds risky, what with the Lannisters and their dogs running around King's Landing. The Lannister son, a sworn brother of the KG, murdered the king. Lannister men brutally murdered Rhaegar's wife and children. KL itself has been brutally sacked. And Robert has immediately accepted these actions on his behalf. I don't think Ned would have gone anywhere near KL with Jon at this point.

But Robert, nor the Lannisters, had any reason to suspect Ned from anything. If Ned kept Jon on the ship, hidden away very well, no one would know about him.

Also, we don't know how long the Lannisters stayed in KL after the Sack. They might have left by such a point in time.

Another possibility is that Ned and Howland left with two ships from Starfall, with Howland and Jon on one, and Ned with Lyanna's remains on the other, giving him the possibility of visiting KL, letting Robert say goodbye to the remains of the woman he loved, whilst Jon came nowhere near the city

[yolkboy]

The official A World of Ice and Fire app.

In addition, as to what's canon and what's not. Ran has confirmed that it all comes from GRRM, so there are no conclusions he and Linda made themselves, that might prove to be wrong in the future.

Rhaenys it's clear you want the app to be considered canon as the authors word. Ran said the info, to his knowledge, is from canon. You are twisting that to mean it's directly from Grrm's mouth. The app is HUGE. Grrm helped out during his lunch break, he did not tell Ran every bit of info in that app, and i doubt very much he's read it all. When Ran says it comes from canon - this is likely to mean his interpretation of the books.

Where you are getting the idea that Grrm has "provided" all of this app information, I don't know. He must take long lunch breaks. We know he provided some info, yes.

But since all the new info the app provides isn't anything drastic, for as far as I can tell, I think we can just trust it.

"Confirmations" of Sandor, Jon, Ashara's deaths aren't drastic?

If you want to trust it as the authors word that's your choice, but it simply is not.

Of course Sandor is stated to have died (because in present asoiaf, his survival is just a theory). But the other things, the things that have already happened, that we know won't have any impact on the story yet to come, that should count as canon.

I'll take the direct authors word, thanks. This is the standard anyone who values intellectual honesty keeps IMO. Picking and choosing what is canon seems inherently problematic to me.

Should Mel originating from Asshai also be counted as canon - even though it's plainly contradicted in the text? What's the work around for that one?

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Should Mel originating from Asshai also be counted as canon - even though it's plainly contradicted in the text? What's the work around for that one?

Wait how is it contradicted? I though Mel remembers being from Asshai?

[MtnLion]

But Ned would need a wetnurse for Jon during the journey north, so either Wylla was not the only wetnurse at Starfall, or she accompanied them on the way north, until Ned found another (which he could have done as early as White Harbor), and was then send back south?

And if Ned returning form Starfall with a babe was the reason the story about Ashara came to be, then why are there people who still believe the other stories (the fishermans daughter, or Wylla herself)? I think that must be because there are still other possibilities, which will have been created by the vagueness of the story, and the uncertainty of it all.

What I don't get is this: the story is mostly told to Winterfells smallfolk by Ned's soldiers, but wouldn't they have known that Ashara hadn't been anywhere near Ned after his wedding to Cat?

It looks to me like you believe that Ned would sail from Starfall to White Harbor. However, with Howland's help sailing from Starfall to Gray Water Watch would be far shorter, and more secretive. Catelyn probably received word from Ned that he was returning home, via raven from Starfall, and beats her to Winterfell. It fits together pretty nicely.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Yolkboy, I'm not saying every single word from the app should be considered 100% canon. But the general idea flowing around was that every single new bit of info from the app should not be trusted, and I just felt like that wasn't fair. Most of the info from the app, for as far as I'm aware, is just the info from what's in the books. Ran said "But I can't think of anything in the app which isn't canonical in the sense that it's from GRRM. " I don't read this to mean as Ran gave his own interpretation to things, but that just might be from the fact that I'm not a native speaker then.

When I speak about drastic, I mean things like confirming theories on Jons parentage, or on Aegon being real or not. With things not being drastic, I meant the examples I spoke of, like Darkstars age, or the fact he and Arianne had sex. The fact that Jaehaerys and Alysanne had 9 children, and that the wife of Aegon III was named Daenaera. Those are not drastic things to discover, IMO.

I don't uderstand your reaction on my Sandor Clegane comment. Sandor is stated in the books to have died (as goes the story told to Brienne). We then are provided with hints that this may very well not be the case entirely (and that he might have died in the sense that the Hound has died, but that Sandor himself lives on). GRRM, in the books, has not yet explicitly stated that Sandor is still alive, and such a report in the app would be a spoiler, and as I said, I completely understand why they don't put those things in there. Trusting the app about the characters in the present asoiaf times is not completely correct, I have stated that.

As to Mel, perhaps originates from Asshai in the sense that she came to Asshai extremely young? I don't know. I'm not trying to twist anything.

And I do value intellectual honesty. Which is why I don't ignore the app completely. I never meant either that we should trust it 100% and I'm sorry if it has been perceived that way. I just meant that the comments from "it's from the app, so I won't believe it" should keep in mind that GRRM personally provided the info on it.

I had found something R+L=J related in the app information someone had told me about, and so I wanted to share it here, where it fit the discussion. That caused a discussion about the app itself. Since that discussion was still going on, and I had asked Ran some questions about it in the meantime, I just wanted to share his answers here. Didn't mean to cause trouble..

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

It looks to me like you believe that Ned would sail from Starfall to White Harbor. However, with Howland's help sailing from Starfall to Gray Water Watch would be far shorter, and more secretive. Catelyn probably received word from Ned that he was returning home, via raven from Starfall, and beats her to Winterfell. It fits together pretty nicely.

I hadn´t even thought about Gray Water Watch.. That would indeed be better, since it´s Howlands own seat. :)

[AlienTwo]

As to the app, I agree with Rhaenys. It is probably "canon" in so far as what we know, by now. Jon is "dead" at the end of the 5 books, as is Sandor (there are rumors to the contrary, but rumors shouldn't make it into an app like this). I believe if in chapter 1 of WoW we see Jon is alive, the slider settings will change, but always show him dead as of book 5.

[ArabellaVidal]

But Robert, nor the Lannisters, had any reason to suspect Ned from anything. If Ned kept Jon on the ship, hidden away very well, no one would know about him.

Also, we don't know how long the Lannisters stayed in KL after the Sack. They might have left by such a point in time.

Robert and Ned had just quarrelled. Ned left King's Landing. Tywin Lannister would never waste this golden opportunity to exert immediate influence upon Robert. He wouldn't leave nor send the majority of his forces away from KL until his position as the new king's ally was consolidated. There would be the chance, however slight, that Robert would think on Ned's words or that he would somehow be influenced to punish Jaime and/or reconsider his position on the Lannisters by allowing anti-Lannister lobbyists to move into influential positions at the new court.

I don't know if I'm remembering correctly, but doesn't it say somewhere that Tywin had Cersei summoned from Casterly Rock a short time after the end of the Rebellion? It implies he didn't leave. I do think though that he would have sent away the most notable of his war criminals like Gregor Clegane and Amory Porch for the sake of appearances but not necessarily the case because wouldn't that be admission of wrongdoing on behalf of his men? I dunno.

Also I just read the essay linked on the second page regarding Ned's views on Lannister brutality and that just cements my belief that Ned would never bring Jon anywhere close to Tywin Lannister at the peak of his brutality towards 'dragon spawn'.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Robert and Ned had just quarrelled. Ned left King's Landing. Tywin Lannister would never waste this golden opportunity to exert immediate influence upon Robert. He wouldn't leave nor send the majority of his forces away from KL until his position as the new king's ally was consolidated. There would be the chance, however slight, that Robert would think on Ned's words or that he would somehow be influenced to punish Jaime and/or reconsider his position on the Lannisters by allowing anti-Lannister lobbyists to move into influential positions at the new court.

I don't know if I'm remembering correctly, but doesn't it say somewhere that Tywin had Cersei summoned from Casterly Rock a short time after the end of the Rebellion? It implies he didn't leave. I do think though that he would have sent away the most notable of his war criminals like Gregor Clegane and Amory Porch for the sake of appearances but not necessarily the case because wouldn't that be admission of wrongdoing on behalf of his men? I dunno.

Also I just read the essay linked on the second page regarding Ned's views on Lannister brutality and that just cements my belief that Ned would never bring Jon anywhere close to Tywin Lannister at the peak of his brutality towards 'dragon spawn'.

I can't remember having ever read that. Tywin summoned Cersei to court when she was 12, either in the hopes to marry her to Viserys, or because he was waiting for Elia Martell to die, so Rhaegar could marry Cersei instead (as per Jaime's interpretation).

The entry of Barristan in the White Book shows us he went to CR to get Cersei for the wedding, but the wedding occured in 284AC, IIRC.

[Ser Leftwich]

I can't remember having ever read that. Tywin summoned Cersei to court when she was 12, either in the hopes to marry her to Viserys, or because he was waiting for Elia Martell to die, so Rhaegar could marry Cersei instead (as per Jaime's interpretation).

The entry of Barristan in the White Book shows us he went to CR to get Cersei for the wedding, but the wedding occured in 284AC, IIRC.

Since Barristan was so wounded at the Trident, it would have been an appreciable amount of time before he was riding west to escort Cersei back, even as long as months.

As a side note, it is possible that Tywin and Jon Arryn forced Robert to agree to the wedding with Cersei before he knew Lyanna was dead. Though that seems out of character for Robert.

(I can't locate the passages that talk about the arranged marriage between Robert and Cersei, but I will keep looking.)

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Since Barristan was so wounded at the Trident, it would have been an appreciable amount of time before he was riding west to escort Cersei back, even as long as months.

As a side note, it is possible that Tywin and Jon Arryn forced Robert to agree to the wedding with Cersei before he knew Lyanna was dead. Though that seems out of character for Robert.

(I can't locate the passages that talk about the arranged marriage between Robert and Cersei, but I will keep looking.)

Robert stated in a Game of Thrones that he did not wish to wed after Lyanna's death..

I had no wish to marry after Lyanna was taken from me

[Black Crow]

Wait how is it contradicted? I though Mel remembers being from Asshai?

Not quite; she remembers going to study in Asshai

[Ygrain]

I hadn´t even thought about Gray Water Watch.. That would indeed be better, since it´s Howlands own seat. :)

I think HR played an even bigger role in transporting Jon to the North (sorry if this has been mentioned upthread, I missed its start and only skimmed through) - I think that Ned might have sent him ahead so that no-one, ever, saw Lord Stark travelling with a newborn. In this way, Jon's origin becomes totally obscured. Meanwhile, Ned can even make a stop at KL to report to Robert without putting Jon at any risk.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I think HR played an even bigger role in transporting Jon to the North (sorry if this has been mentioned upthread, I missed its start and only skimmed through) - I think that Ned might have sent him ahead so that no-one, ever, saw Lord Stark travelling with a newborn. In this way, Jon's origin becomes totally obscured. Meanwhile, Ned can even make a stop at KL to report to Robert without putting Jon at any risk.

I think this is very well possible. I was first stuck on the idea that Ned would use White Harbor, because it's the best port to land in the North, but you and MtnLion are right, and Greywater Watch is much better.

And in this scenario, Ned can indeed visit KL without bringin Jon in the near vicinity.

I like it :)

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Not quite; she remembers going to study in Asshai

But she never says where she was born right? therefore the app is not contradicting the text in this scenario correct?

[Black Crow]

But she never says where she was born right? therefore the app is not contradicting the text in this scenario correct?

Although she's first referred to obliquely in AGoT when Cersei and the Council discuss how Stannis has imported a shadow binder from Asshai, her own POV in ADwD relates how she was a child slave bound for life to the great red temple [presumably in Volantis] she speaks of long years of training and then towards the end when speaking to Mance and Jon she muses:

"...That was a lesson Melisandre had learned long before Asshai..."

So wherever she came from originally, Asshai came later.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Although she's first referred to obliquely in AGoT when Cersei and the Council discuss how Stannis has imported a shadow binder from Asshai, her own POV in ADwD relates how she was a child slave bound for life to the great red temple [presumably in Volantis] she speaks of long years of training and then towards the end when speaking to Mance and Jon she muses:

"...That was a lesson Melisandre had learned long before Asshai..."

So wherever she came from originally, Asshai came later.

Is it possible originates in this sense just means that she spend the biggest part of her life in Asshai? Asshai did come later in life, I agree. But perhaps not that much later, relatively speaking (Melisandre is supposed to be 200 or 400 years old, IIRC?)

And do we know the location of the Great Red Temple?

[Ygrain]

And do we know the location of the Great Red Temple?

Woudln't know of a Red Temple but a Red Church is over here :D

[Black Crow]

Is it possible originates in this sense just means that she spend the biggest part of her life in Asshai? Asshai did come later in life, I agree. But perhaps not that much later, relatively speaking (Melisandre is supposed to be 200 or 400 years old, IIRC?)

And do we know the location of the Great Red Temple?

As I say, I took it to be head office in Volantis.

As to the App, I don't have it but it probably depends a lot on exactly how its worded and whether it says she comes from Asshai or lists it as her place of birth. As you say, if she spent years there she could justifiable be said to have come from there at this point in the story even though she was born somewhere else entirely. I think from the extracts I have seen from the App, there could be quite a lot of this in it; information which is probably true in a conversational sense so to speak but not necessarily true in a legalistic sense. In this case does it matter? At this stage probably not. Unless some dramatic twist lies ahead it doesn't matter whether she was born in Bognor Regis or Chroyane. What does matter is that she was trained in Asshai.

As to her real age, I believe it was Carice Van Houten who said she was about 400 years old. Again this doesn't come out of the books but its not at all inconsistent with her reference to "countless years" of practice. Her POV certainly gives the impression that she is very much older than she looks.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

As to her real age, I believe it was Carice Van Houten who said she was about 400 years old. Again this doesn't come out of the books but its not at all inconsistent with her reference to "countless years" of practice. Her POV certainly gives the impression that she is very much older than she looks.

I know Carice van Houten said 400 years, but wasn't there also an SSM saying something like 100 or 200 years?