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R+L=J v 81


Stubby

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I know Carice van Houten said 400 years, but wasn't there also an SSM saying something like 100 or 200 years?

Did she really say over 400? I recall an interview where Carice says she does not know exactly how old Mel is but that she is way over a hundred years old. Is there another interview?

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Did she really say over 400? I recall an interview where Carice says she does not know exactly how old Mel is but that she is way over a hundred years old. Is there another interview?

I believe it was an interview with the guy who plays Cressen, and I can remember he tells that he had asked Carice how it was possible he died of the poison while she lived, and she had answered him that she was over 400 years old...

Now I'm doubting, perhaps she said 100. But in a report written about Melissandre (in relation to the show), it was said 400...

But it wasn't an interview with Carice herself..

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If Melisandre is over 100, then the possibility of a relation to Shiera Seastar is on. I am suspicious of the same, and I think that some in the forum would like things tied up more tightly than GRRM is wont to do, but we shall see.

(If she is over 400, a biological connection to Shiera is not on.)

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One question to you all...


How unsafe was Jon, if people had found out he was Rhaegar's son? The most common answer is "Robert would have him killed imediately", but do you think it's true?


I believe Robert would have wanted him dead, at least at first, but are we certain he couldn't have changed his mind with the right arguments? If Ned had told him Lyanna didn't enjoy being with Rhaegar, but the boy was her son and she loved him anyway, and was scared of what would happen to him, would Robert be so adamant about killing him? I used to think he would be mad with rage, but when I really think about it, I don't find it so certain.



I mean, as far as anyone knows, Jon would still be a bastard, and even if he had any claim to the throne, who would support him? Not Ned (and consequentely, not the Riverlands or the Vale), not Dorne, not the Westerlands (with Cersei being queen), nor the Reach (why the hell would the fight against the other six kingdoms for a boy that means nothing to them?). The danger would be in his children perhaps, but that could easily be solved sending him to the Wall.



And was it really high treason of Ned to hide Jon? He wasn't plotting to usurp the throne. The idea that Ned was honor bound to tell Robert and let him decide the fate of his nephew is strange to me (though I obviously look at the situation with modern conceptions). I'm not saying Robert would liked being kept in the dark, but if he ever found out, would he think Ned should have told him as a duty to his king, or as his obligation as a friend?



Jon obviousy had a much better life with everyone thinking he was just a bastard and Ned certainly couldn't take so many risks, but my question is: if the truth was revealed, would it mean death to everyone involved, without any question, or could disarter be averted?


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^ I'm not sure why you doubt that Robert would haven killed Jon if Ned obviously thought the same. Ned is his best friend. He presumably knows Robert better than anyone. He refers to Robert's hatred of Targaryens as a "madness in him." Robert himself said that he sees no babes, only dragonspawn in response to the suggestion that Aegon and Rhaenys were innocent babies. In other words, they are all worth killing to him. I'm not sure why people still doubt that Robert would have killed Jon had he known.


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Well, Ned couldn't exactly bet his nephew's life on Robert's whims, specially after the Sack. That doesn't mean he couldn't be convinced to spare the boy. Yeah, Aegon and Rhaenys were only dragonspawn to him, but Jon was Lyanna's son. If Ned told him Lyanna hated Rhaegar, but wanted Jon to live, and that the boy was no threat, they maybe he could change his mind. (It's not like Ned would tell him Lyanna ran away, that she and Rhaegar were married, and that she died in childbirth)


Robert let Dany and Viserys alone for 14 years or something, despite hating them.


Anyway, I certainly don't doubt Jon was in danger.


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Well, Ned couldn't exactly bet his nephew's life on Robert's whims, specially after the Sack. That doesn't mean he couldn't be convinced to spare the boy. Yeah, Aegon and Rhaenys were only dragonspawn to him, but Jon was Lyanna's son. If Ned told him Lyanna hated Rhaegar, but wanted Jon to live, and that the boy was no threat, they maybe he could change his mind. (It's not like Ned would tell him Lyanna ran away, that she and Rhaegar were married, and that she died in childbirth)

Robert let Dany and Viserys alone for 14 years or something, despite hating them.

Anyway, I certainly don't doubt Jon was in danger.

Lyanna might have wanted Jon to know that Rhaegar was his father, but Ned kept it from him. Or the opposite, Lyanna might have asked that Jon did not learn his parentage, that the guilt would weight so heavy on Jon.

There are many reasons and rationales as to why Ned would not tell Robert that Jon was Lyanna's son.

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^ I'm not sure why you doubt that Robert would haven killed Jon if Ned obviously thought the same. Ned is his best friend. He presumably knows Robert better than anyone. He refers to Robert's hatred of Targaryens as a "madness in him." Robert himself said that he sees no babes, only dragonspawn in response to the suggestion that Aegon and Rhaenys were innocent babies. In other words, they are all worth killing to him. I'm not sure why people still doubt that Robert would have killed Jon had he known.

Ned was not hiding the truth about Jon because he feared for his life, but for the promise Lyanna made him keep. <---i cant prove this but thats my guess

I can see Ned + Jon talking to Robert about keeping the boy alive with his identity hidden.

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I mean, as far as anyone knows, Jon would still be a bastard, and even if he had any claim to the throne, who would support him?

As long as Jon or any of his descendants remained alive, he would be a threat to Baratheon rule. Anyone wanting to overthrow the current ruler would have a Targaryen to declare the rightful king, just like the Martell's schemed to do so with Viserys and Dany.

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I'm sure someone has already mentioned this, but here is an argument why Robert would like to kill Jon - Jon might not be a bastard. Polygamy is not something unheard of when Targaryens are concerned, starting from Aegon the Conquerer. The sons of both his sisters became kings at some point or another, so it is quite possible that Rhaegar married Lyanna as well. If Ned knew this, then he would have all the more reason to hide Jon's true heritage. This is just another speculation, of course, but it sounds logical.


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I'm sure someone has already mentioned this, but here is an argument why Robert would like to kill Jon - Jon might not be a bastard. Polygamy is not something unheard of when Targaryens are concerned, starting from Aegon the Conquerer. The sons of both his sisters became kings at some point or another, so it is quite possible that Rhaegar married Lyanna as well. If Ned knew this, then he would have all the more reason to hide Jon's true heritage. This is just another speculation, of course, but it sounds logical.

Robert would want to kill Jon only because, legitimate or not, Jon is the proof of Rhaegar and Lyanna having (consensual) sex. Like Snape hating Harry because he's the proof of Lily choosing James Potter instead of him. If Robert believes he's product of rape, he would hate the kid. If he believes he's the product of love, he'd hate him even more.
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I mean, as far as anyone knows, Jon would still be a bastard, and even if he had any claim to the throne, who would support him?

And was it really high treason of Ned to hide Jon?

Jon is likely not a bastard (polygamy precedents, KG at the ToJ and royal symbolism considering) and it would take only a short investigation on Varys' part to infer the truth. Let's not forget he had been pivotal to the downfall of the Targaryen dinasty, well placed whispers in the dark and all.

At that point Jon would be the ultimate threat to Robert's newborn and unstable rule. History teaches us. And history has always been implacable when it comes to child contenders to the throne (the Princes in the... Tower is a very apt analogy).

Lyanna knew this, thus the fear gripping her before extracting the promise(s) from her brother. And Ned knew as well. He essentially had 3 good reasons to hide Jon's identity:

1) Robert's blind temper

2) Varys' I-have-always-abhorred-the-sight-of-my-own-blood machinations

3) Tywin Lannister's ambitions

None of the aforementioned players could take any risk, with loyalists and offended Houses possibly flocking to Jon's cause and reigniting the civil war.

So, yes. It was high treason, of the worst kind. With the blood boiling bonus of the personal implications: Lyanna was Robert's betrothed, Ned his best friend.

Robert let Dany and Viserys alone for 14 years or something, despite hating them.

Well, no.

All those years of running from city to city one step ahead of the Usurper's knives
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Robert would want to kill Jon only because, legitimate or not, Jon is the proof of Rhaegar and Lyanna having (consensual) sex. Like Snape hating Harry because he's the proof of Lily choosing James Potter instead of him. If Robert believes he's product of rape, he would hate the kid. If he believes he's the product of love, he'd hate him even more.

Yea this sums it up.Either Rhaegar raped the woman he loved and had Jon or the woman he loved never loved him and had a child with the man who took her from him.The latter would make Robert's rage know no bounds as it would be a betrayal of the memory of the only woman he ever loved.Either way Jon would be a constant reminder that Rhaegar really did win in the end.Robert wouldnt see Jon anymore he would only see Rhaegar and he would want to kill him.And considering Ned promised to protect Jon that would have turned them against each other.

When I first read the chapter where Ned has his fever dream I sorta expected that to be what started the war (Robert learning that his best friend is protecting the child of the man he hates more then anything in the world)

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“I will kill every Targaryen I can get my hands on, until they are as dead as their dragons, and then I will piss on their graves.” (1)

Ned knew better than to defy him when the wrath was on him. If the years had not quenched Robert’s thirst for revenge, no words of his would help. “You can’t get your hands on this one, can you?” he said quietly.

The king’s mouth twisted in a bitter grimace. “No, gods be cursed. Some pox-ridden Pentoshi cheesemonger had her brother and her walled up on his estate with pointy-hatted eunuchs all around them, and now he’s handed them over to the Dothraki. I should have had them both killed years ago, when it was easy to get at them, but Jon was as bad as you. (2) More fool I, I listened to him.”

(1) For those who'd like to fantasise Robert would keep Jon alive.

(2) He didn't hunt them down before they were in Pentos. Viserys was paranoid (he proved to be his father's son from early on).

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Jon is likely not a bastard (polygamy precedents, KG at the ToJ and royal symbolism considering) and it would take only a short investigation on Varys' part to infer the truth. Let's not forget he had been pivotal to the downfall of the Targaryen dinasty, well placed whispers in the dark and all.

At that point Jon would be the ultimate threat to Robert's newborn and unstable rule. History teaches us. And history has always been implacable when it comes to child contenders to the throne (the Princes in the... Tower is a very apt analogy).

Lyanna knew this, thus the fear gripping her before extracting the promise(s) from her brother. And Ned knew as well.

None of the aforementioned players could take any risk, with loyalists and offended Houses possibly flocking to Jon's cause and reigniting the civil war.

So, yes. It was high treason, of the worst kind. With the blood boiling bonus of the personal implications: Lyanna was Robert's betrothed, Ned his best friend.

Well, there's a good chance that Jon is legitimate, but he would still have to prove it, and I don't see Ned providing the marriage documents when he wanted the boy safe... Though, as you say, Varys could (would) use him in his plans, whatever they are.

Which loyalists would flock to Jon, if the Starks don't? There could be people willingly to, but without the support of at least one of the major houses, it wouldn't be very smart to do it.

The biggest danger, IMO, is if the Starks and Baratheons aren't allies anymore (which actually happened, because of Joffrey). Then, in the Wot5K, Jon may have been crowned instead of Robb, Catelyn could have convinced the Tyrells to betroth Margaery to him after Renly's death, and then he would have enough support to win the throne.

However, right after the Rebellion, no one knew Joffrey would be Joffrey, so how much reason they had at the time to think Jon was a danger to the Baratheons?

Anyway, I'm not saying Robert would definetely spare Jon, because there was a good chance he wouldn't. And even if he did want to, Tywin wouldn't, All I was wondering is if there was a chance Robert could be convinced to send him to the Wall, or marry him to a lowborn woman to weaken his claim, or something. I'm pretty sure there were other ways to prevent him from pressing his claim, the biggest issue here is Robert's hatred for Rhaegar.

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In addition to this, I have been asking Ran about the subject of the app and it's degree of being canon. He said this (emphasis mine):

(in response to the question how big the chances would be that information revealed from the app only are going to be changed for the story in the future:)

Ran also posted this about 2 years ago:

(had to quote it this way since the topic was locked)

So, to me, it sounds like, especially those things that have a close connection to the story, that are revealed in the app, are very trustworthy.

I'm surprised the revelation of Gerold Dayne's age range hasn't started Aerys+Joanna=Tyrion and Gerold twins theories, lol.

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Robert doesn't have a good track record with Targaryen kids. What makes him worse is the Lannisters, ambitious and vicious, whose House would be under considerable threat with the return of the Targaryens. The Baratheons have at least a smidgeon of right on their sides. The day Tywin ordered the murders of Elia and her children and laid the innocents wrapped in Lannister colours at Robert's feet, they sealed their doom at the hands of any Targaryen who could gain power. Observe the vengeance of the Martells. It's far more subtle and and attempts, at least, to spare the innocents. A Targaryen couldn't be trusted not to be far more ruthless than the Lannisters in their revenge. Apparently that is what worries Ned more than anything:

What Robert would do, egged on by the Lannisters.

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Well, there's a good chance that Jon is legitimate, but he would still have to prove it, and I don't see Ned providing the marriage documents when he wanted the boy safe... Though, as you say, Varys could (would) use him in his plans, whatever they are.

Which loyalists would flock to Jon, if the Starks don't? There could be people willingly to, but without the support of at least one of the major houses, it wouldn't be very smart to do it.

The biggest danger, IMO, is if the Starks and Baratheons aren't allies anymore (which actually happened, because of Joffrey). Then, in the Wot5K, Jon may have been crowned instead of Robb, Catelyn could have convinced the Tyrells to betroth Margaery to him after Renly's death, and then he would have enough support to win the throne.

However, right after the Rebellion, no one knew Joffrey would be Joffrey, so how much reason they had at the time to think Jon was a danger to the Baratheons?

Anyway, I'm not saying Robert would definetely spare Jon, because there was a good chance he wouldn't. And even if he did want to, Tywin wouldn't, All I was wondering is if there was a chance Robert could be convinced to send him to the Wall, or marry him to a lowborn woman to weaken his claim, or something. I'm pretty sure there were other ways to prevent him from pressing his claim, the biggest issue here is Robert's hatred for Rhaegar.

Not a claimant of legitimate royal blood. There will always be the malcontent who would flock to his side bringing wealth and armies to his cause. If there is one thing to be learned from the history of Westeros, it is this.

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Legitimacy doesn't matter anyway. Any thread no matter how slander would also be snatched upon. Look at Perkin Warbeck/Lambert Simnel for that sort of thing.

They both claimed to have legitimate royal blood. Whether they actually had it or not wasn't the point, as you say. But they had to seem legitimate.

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