R+L=J v 81

[Eira Seren]

Can't say why she isn't named, but that would be the daughter who married a Vale lordling.

Which is a little curious, since 3 other Royces are mentioned with no reservations. Perhaps it's nothing, though.

[Ygrain]

Which is a little curious, since 3 other Royces are mentioned with no reservations. Perhaps it's nothing, though.

Perhaps, but in general, exceptions are suspicious.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Perhaps because it isn't the final family tree? She's also coloured in blue, as are the two unknown Stark wives above. It seems they might still be in the final version, which I sincerely hope will go back all the way to the King who Knelt.

[FrozenFire3]

These little excerpts make me exceptionally gleeful. A bunch of theories debunked and a few well (purposefully?) placed surprises. I can't help but recalling GRRM's own words:

You hate to lose any reader, but it is going to happen, regardless. In a long series, readers who loved the early books may envision the story going in certain directions. Often those directions are wildly divergent. When the later books actually come out, some of those readers are inevitably going to be upset, because the story on the page does not correspond with the one in their heads. Others may be delighted. I have lost readers with every book, I am sure... but I've gained a lot more.

Also, talking of R+L elective affinities, both Targaryen and Stark like to keep it in the family LOL Not to mention the growing number of precedents for uncle/niece, aunt/nephew matches (in different shades and degrees) on both Jon's family lines :leer:

Sorry, this is simply too hilarious :lol:

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Which is a little curious, since 3 other Royces are mentioned with no reservations. Perhaps it's nothing, though.

Actually I see the same Royce name listed twice, as mother and wife of Artos. Could be a coincidence, but also could be a mistake. Between that, the "blue" unknowns and the spelling mistakes, I think we are really dealing with an unfinished product. Hopefully clarity awaits in the fall ;)

Eta- to be on topic-ish... FF3, I agree-- too funny! I noticed too and couldn't suppress a little grin :)

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Actually I see the same Royce name listed twice, as mother and wife of Artos. Could be a coincidence, but also could be a mistake. Between that, the "blue" unknowns and the spelling mistakes, I think we are really dealing with an unfinished product. Hopefully clarity awaits in the fall ;)

Eta- to be on topic-ish... FF3, I agree-- too funny! I noticed too and couldn't suppress a little grin :)

Yes, Ran confirmed that the preview pages online that appeared on Reddit, the Stark tree specifically, are still in need of editing. While the Lorra Ryce thing might not be a mistake (Artos' wife could be a cousin to Berons wife), the fact that Jeyne and Tyrion are spelled wrongly, show that we're dealing with an unfinished product.

[Ghost's Shadow]

I said like 3 times that thing was unfinished. ;)

[MoIaF]

These little excerpts make me exceptionally gleeful. A bunch of theories debunked and a few well (purposefully?) placed surprises. I can't help but recalling GRRM's own words:

Also, talking of R+L elective affinities, both Targaryen and Stark like to keep it in the family LOL Not to mention the growing number of precedents for uncle/niece, aunt/nephew matches (in different shades and degrees) on both Jon's family lines :leer:

Sorry, this is simply too hilarious :lol:

I laughed so hard when I saw that. it is hilarious... :rofl:

[Moondancer]

The Glee of the ASoIaF is glorious. :D

[Ghost's Shadow]

Well, we already know that it was thought dangerous for there to have been too many dragons, so they intermarried.

We also know that Tywin Lannister married Joanna Lannister, his cousin, and while I don't know the Lannister family tree upside down, it was probably done to limit the amount of Lannisters as well.

There's no reason for the Starks to not do this either, for all the Houses to do this.

But I sure too had a good laugh with Ned's mother was Lady Stark in hindsight. Funny one, George! ;)

I would love to see more houses the Stark girls married into, though. E.g. a Blackwood girl was married into the family, but did a Stark daughter marry a Blackwood son as well? We know of Vale cousins, but other than that?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Another example of marrying into the family, is Jon Arryn, who was married to an Arryn cousin.

[Luddagain]

Not sure this is fully correct but there is SOMETHING weird about the Robert Lyanna thing. I rather think that Robert DID make a pass at Lyanna causing her to run away. Robert feels extreme guilt which is why I think he was basically suicidal from the day she died.

Every action of Robert since ascending the throne has been deliberately self destructive - WHY?

I also feel sure Robert KNEW at least sub consciously that his kids were not really his. He showed no interest in them - even less than he has shown in Myra or Edrik.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Families intermarrying-- be it cousins or uncles-- should not be a surprise to anyone familiar with rl history. European nobility is extremely close and incestuous, going back to the dawn of European countries as political entities (post Roman Empire)

But I'm with Ghost's Shadow-- I want to know where all those Stark daughters disappeared to. Looking at the patterns we see in the male marriages I see a potential that a lot of the northern families we see in the "present" are actually cousins of the Starks.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Holy Crap!!! Eddard's mother is a Flint!!!

[Bael's Bastard]

I'm not sure where all the incest talk is coming from, at least in Ned's line. Assuming this will turn out to be accurate, the closest cases I see are,

Cregan Stark (son of Rickon Stark and ?)

+

Lynara Stark (daughter of ? and ?)

Edric Stark (son of Cregan Stark and Lynara Stark)

+

Serena (daughter of Rickon Stark and Jeyne Manderly, granddaughter of Cregan Stark and Arra Norrey)

Rickard Stark (son of Edwyle Stark and Marna Locke, grandson of Willam Stark and Melantha Blackwood, great grandson of Beron Stark and Lorra Royce)

+

Lyarra Stark (daughter of Rodrik Stark and Arya Flint, granddaughter of Beron Stark and Lorra Royce)

Concerning Ned's line, the closest relation seems to be Lyarra and Rickard, being a granddaughter and great grandson to Beron Stark and Lorra Royce through different sons of theirs. Lynara's relation to Cregan isn't clear.

Ned's paternal grandmother was a Locke, his paternal great grandmother was a Blackwood, his paternal great great grandmother was a Royce, his paternal great great great grandmother was a Karstark, and his paternal great great great great grandmother was a Stark whose relation to her husband Cregan is unknown.

Ned's mother was a Stark, maternal grandmother was a Flint, maternal great grandmother was a Royce, maternal great great grandmother was a Karstark, matenrla great great great grandmother was a Stark whose relation to her husband Cregan is unknown.

[Bael's Bastard]

Holy Crap!!! Eddard's mother is a Flint!!!

She was a Stark, her mother's mother was a Flint.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

She was a Stark, her mother's mother was a Flint.

duh, that's what I meant :)

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

She was a Stark, her mother's mother was a Flint.

I know I've said it several times since first seeing the tree last night, but here it goes:

She was actually and truly "Lady Stark". GRRM has been keeping us making theories about this for years, sounding mysterious, while he actually gave the answer :D hahaha, Can't get over that one, it's briljant!

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I know I've said it several times since first seeing the tree last night, but here it goes:

She was actually and truly "Lady Stark". GRRM has been keeping us making theories about this for years, sounding mysterious, while he actually gave the answer :D hahaha, Can't get over that one, it's briljant!

I think it is more than obvious the Stark men were/are a very noble and faithful bunch. Jon is (or would be) the first bastard born in the Stark family in 6 generations. Confirming yet again that it is COMPLETELY out of character for Ned or any Stark men to have bastards....it is clearly not their way of life at all. Nothing like the Targaryens whose entire family history is completely littered with bastards.

Gendel and Gorne led a wildling army under the wall through passages and came out on the other side.... where does it come out? In Winterfell?

[Lady Woodland]

Not sure this is fully correct but there is SOMETHING weird about the Robert Lyanna thing. I rather think that Robert DID make a pass at Lyanna causing her to run away. Robert feels extreme guilt which is why I think he was basically suicidal from the day she died.

Every action of Robert since ascending the throne has been deliberately self destructive - WHY?

I also feel sure Robert KNEW at least sub consciously that his kids were not really his. He showed no interest in them - even less than he has shown in Myra or Edrik.

Hey OP kudo's to you too, brave to put it out there, I mentioned in another thread that Robert's behaviour was overkill, but it didn't get a response. The bolded part of your comment makes lots of sense to me. & Robert seems to have had a habit of 'having his way' with women & this aspect of his persona is not something Lyanna was comfortable with & the fact she expresses it in what little text we have about her would seem to make of vital importance.

Playing devil's advocate what if Robert did try to seduce her or 'dishonoured' her as the phrase goes, like with Ashara, I've certainly met men in the 21st century who think just because they are handsome it should be an automatic "yes" let alone medieval times. She was his betrothed after all he might not have thought twice about the ceremony & want to "encourage" or even "force" an early marriage. He didn't necessarily have to get her pregnant for her to be upset enough to run away.

Lyanna does not appear to have a chaperone (unless you count Old Nan) & her Father Rickon has made the match - no good complaining to him, Ned is Robert's best friend which leaves young Benjen, did he help her flee? she made a connection with Rhaegar at the Harrenhall Tourney so she ran away to him for protection & the affair happened from there.