R+L=J v 81

[Ghost's Shadow]

I doubt that's the conclusion you can draw from that, Suzanna.

Weren't we told that Brandon probably did have a few bastards? Ned is an exception to the Starks (low wolfsblood, apparently), rather than the norm.

There's of course bastards, and there's acknowledged bastards. We know of at least a Brandon Snow (not mentioned on it, too far back?)

Perhaps some other angle to view it in: why would the Citadel know of every Stark bastard out there. Those who are mentioned might have done something to get seen by the Citadel? We don't know yet.

To conclude that there's not been a Stark bastard in so long is pretty naïve. Do women who marry into the Starks e.g. even know how many bastards their husbands have sired, if they're paying for them, etc.? Women might not have wanted to know.

[Ygrain]

Could someone link me if there is a thread discussion R+L revelations in season 4? I seem to vaguely recall that there might be one somewhere.

[Ghost's Shadow]

Here you go, Ygrain:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/107636-book-spoilers-rlj-and-other-theories-on-hbo/

Edit: My 2,000th post was me being helpful. I now feel accomplished. :P

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I doubt that's the conclusion you can draw from that, Suzanna.

Weren't we told that Brandon probably did have a few bastards? Ned is an exception to the Starks (low wolfsblood, apparently), rather than the norm.

There's of course bastards, and there's acknowledged bastards. We know of at least a Brandon Snow (not mentioned on it, too far back?)

Perhaps some other angle to view it in: why would the Citadel know of every Stark bastard out there. Those who are mentioned might have done something to get seen by the Citadel? We don't know yet.

To conclude that there's not been a Stark bastard in so long is pretty naïve. Do women who marry into the Starks e.g. even know how many bastards their husbands have sired, if they're paying for them, etc.? Women might not have wanted to know.

I guess, I am just going from what we are told, not from what could possibly be out there but is undocumented. I'm sure you're right and there are maybe more bastards, but nothing compared to Robert or the Targaryens.

[Shpati]

If the R+L=J theory is true as of right now and most of the fans knew it all along, do you guys think GRRM may do a last minute change to throw us off?

[Suzanna Stormborn]

If the R+L=J theory is true as of right now and most of the fans knew it all along, do you guys think GRRM may do a last minute change to throw us off?

No, He has stated many times that he does not let the fans/fandom/this website affect his story in the least.

[Bael's Bastard]

Absolutely not.

[Shpati]

No, He has stated many times that he does not let the fans/fandom/this website affect his story in the least.

Thanks!

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I think it is more than obvious the Stark men were/are a very noble and faithful bunch. Jon is (or would be) the first bastard born in the Stark family in 6 generations. Confirming yet again that it is COMPLETELY out of character for Ned or any Stark men to have bastards....it is clearly not their way of life at all. Nothing like the Targaryens whose entire family history is completely littered with bastards.

Gendel and Gorne led a wildling army under the wall through passages and came out on the other side.... where does it come out? In Winterfell?

I doubt that's the conclusion you can draw from that, Suzanna.

Weren't we told that Brandon probably did have a few bastards? Ned is an exception to the Starks (low wolfsblood, apparently), rather than the norm.

There's of course bastards, and there's acknowledged bastards. We know of at least a Brandon Snow (not mentioned on it, too far back?)

Perhaps some other angle to view it in: why would the Citadel know of every Stark bastard out there. Those who are mentioned might have done something to get seen by the Citadel? We don't know yet.

To conclude that there's not been a Stark bastard in so long is pretty naïve. Do women who marry into the Starks e.g. even know how many bastards their husbands have sired, if they're paying for them, etc.? Women might not have wanted to know.

What I think the conclusion regarding the Stark bastards should be, is that there are barely any officially acknowledged bastards. There could be many bastards around, just not officially acknowledged ones.

[Britisher]

IF THIS THEORY WAS TRUE:

Why would there be a battle at the ToJ? Wouldn't the guards allow Ned entry? Why didn't Lyanna stop it? (She is said to have had this fever which develops over DAYS, meaning she would have had the child when Ned arrived and she could've sent down a handmaiden anyway, or shouted down if possible). Why did Lyanna allow Rhaegar to fight against his brother knowing one would ultimately have to die.

E+A=J!

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

IF THIS THEORY WAS TRUE:

Why would there be a battle at the ToJ? Wouldn't the guards allow Ned entry? Why didn't Lyanna stop it? (She is said to have had this fever which develops over DAYS, meaning she would have had the child when Ned arrived and she could've sent down a handmaiden anyway, or shouted down if possible). Why did Lyanna allow Rhaegar to fight against his brother knowing one would ultimately have to die.

E+A=J!

First of all:

Rhaegar didn't fight his brother :) He fought his cousin. And he did so, because his house was being threatened.

Second. Why would there be a battle at ToJ? Because Ned, the honourable man that he is, choose a rebel king over his Targaryen king. Honour bound by Ned, the KG could not predict that Ned would not take the baby to Robert. Perhaps Ned would not mean the child any harm in their eyes, but Ned's honesty would make him most likely to tell his new king, and that would endanger Jon.

Lyanna had a fever, her voice was weak. So no, she did not possess the strength to go down herself an stop it. And I don't know about you, but I wouldn't send an unarmed woman into a battle where 10 men are fighting until the death. The beginning of the encounter was civil talk. But once the battle started... it was most likely too late.

[MtnLion]

"I looked for you on the Trident,” Ned said to them.

Ned knew about Prince Lewyn Martell and Ser Jonothor Darry dying at the Trident. He knew about Ser Barristan Selmy slaying twelve of his and Robert’s friends before being wounded so severely that he may have died without Robert sending his own maester to tend to Selmy’s wounds. He knew that Ser Jaime Lannister had been in the Red Keep during the battle. He expected to see these three at the Trident, too.

“We were not there,” Ser Gerold answered.

From the app we know that Ser Arthur Dayne and Ser Oswell Whent are with Prince Rhaegar when Lyanna enters the company of the prince. There is no surprise about events on the Trident expressed by any of these three. Evidently they are aware of the battle, and the outcome.

“Woe to the Usurper if we had been,” said Ser Oswell.

This states that Robert is considered an usurper by these Kingsguard, or at least by Ser Oswell Whent. He does use the term "we" and implies that Robert could not have won the battle at the Trident if these three had been present at the battle. They know that Robert has been crowned and taken the throne as an usurper. This also tells us that they know of an heir that is still living that has a better claim than Robert.

“When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.”

Ned relays that King's Landing has fallen and King Aerys is dead by Jaime’s hand. Ned knows that the primary duty of the Kingsguard is to protect and defend the king. He wonders why it is that these three Kingsguard were not with King Aerys when King’s Landing fell.

“Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.”

Ser Gerold Hightower condemns Jaime as a Oathbreaker, and implies that he or one of these others would certainly kill Jaime rather than let him slay the king if they had been present. Ser Gerold is expressing his support for King Aerys. He also relays that when Jaime slew Aerys that none of the three had been in a position to react, they were too far away.

“I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege,” Ned told them, and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them.”

Ned tells them that all remaining forces surrendered to him, and pledged fealty to Robert and Ned. He expected to find the last of the Kingsguard with these forces, but again was surprised to note that they were not. This is an invitation for these Kingsguard to surrender to him.

“Our knees do not bend easily,” said Ser Arthur Dayne.

Ser Arthur Dayne speaks for the group, and says that they will not surrender. Of note, when Ned approaches the tower Ser Oswell Whent is on his knee. That fact and this line can amount to a subtle clue that the Kingsguard have already bent their knees at the tower, before Ned arrives.

“Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.”

Ned has offered the Kingsguard the option of surrendering to him, which they rejected. This line is disjointed in the timeline because Ned is changing his tactic. He holds the Kingsguard, especially these three in high regard, even years later. He called them a shining example to the rest of the world. In an attempt to find some talking point that would lead to a peaceful solution, Ned tells them that their queen and prince have fled to Dragonstone without Kingsguard protection. This is an opening for the Kingsguard to discuss a tactical withdrawal. It is within Ned’s capabilities, as second in command, to provide safe passage. It would be in his, his friend’s and the Kingsguard’s best interests to allow them to go to Dragontsone to carry out their duties there.

“Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell.

Ser Willem Darry is a brother to Ser Jonothor Darry of the Kingsguard, and known well to these members of the Kingsguard.

“But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.”

The Lord Commander recognizes that Ser Willem Darry is not Kingsguard, thus the queen and prince Viserys are not currently under Kingsguard protection. Taken together with Ned’s statement, it is easy to see that Ser Gerold Hightower would not flee from King’s Landing with the queen and prince, that he would instead stay at the side of King Aerys.

On the night that news of the Trident arrived at King's Landing Aerys ordered that Rhaella and Viserys be taken to Dragonstone for their safety, as it appeared that King's Landing would be under siege shortly. Jaime was the only Kingsguard in King's Landing so Ser Willem Darry was drafted to protect the royal family members, while Jaime remained with the king, Elia, and her children.

If the Red Keep falls, and Aerys dies then Viserys was safe as long as he could stay alive on Dragonstone. The majority of the fighting men had gone with Rhaegar, and mustering enough men to defend the city or just the Red Keep may be difficult. The White Bull is stating that they would have chosen to stay with the king, rather than flee with the queen and prince.

“Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

Arthur reiterates that the Kingsguard would have chosen to stay in King's Landing over fleeing with Rhaella and Viserys. The primary duty of the Kingsguard is to protect and defend the king, they would choose to stay with King Aerys (then) when Rhaella and Viserys flee the capitol. It appears that these three Kingsguard have decided that they have an obligation to stay at the tower (now).

“We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.

The Lord Commander is citing the Kingsguard’s vow as the reason that they must stay. He has decided that all three would remain, and we must presume that the reason is to protect the king. Several things contribute to this conclusion:

• The White Bull, as Ser Gerold is known, is quite the stickler when it comes to the comport of Kingsguard duties.
  
• Ser Gerold does not have a friendship with Rhaegar that would favor this decision.
  
• Ser Gerold has already stated that he would slay Jaime to protect Aerys.
  
• Ser Gerold’s decision to keep Arthur and Oswell with him only protects the king (the primary purpose of the Kingsguard) if the king is present at the tower.
  
• Ned knows that these men were honoring their Kingsguard vow. There is no other vow that Ned is ever aware of. He thinks of these three as the epitome of honor and skill. A shining example for the world.
  

Reading these three statements, The Kingsguard does not flee (from its duty to protect King Aerys) then or (from its duty to . . .) now, because(explained) we swore a vow; puts things in a very clear light.

Ned’s wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three.

GRRM has confirmed that with equal equipment Ser Barristan Selmy and Ser Arthur Dayne are a close match, with Dawn in hand Ser Arthur is superior. Ser Barristan single-handedly rescued King Aerys from captivity at Duskendale. Ser Jaime Lannister expresses his awe at the defeat of the Kingswood Brotherhood and the Smiling Knight, who was slain by Ser Arthur. In the screenplay Jaime slays a dozen men before being subdued at the battle of the Whispering Woods. Kingsguard practice daily among themselves.

One of the seven is a crannogman, not known for fighting skill. Another is Ethan Glover, recently released from the Black Cells, and likely weak as well as just being Brandon's squire. It seems that even facing the odds that they do, the Kingsguard should prevail. Something odd happened, and I really look forward to GRRM telling us about it.

“And now it begins,” said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.

The most important (first) battle of the Jon Targaryen dynasty. The mindset of the Kingsguard is that they will win the battle, and keep the secret at the tower safe until they can move to safety. There is nothing here that would indicate any fatalism on the part of Arthur. It suggests that Arthur expects to win, though we know with hindsight that they did not, and that at least Ned and Howland are aware of the secret.

“No,” Ned said with sadness in his voice. “Now it ends.”

Ned knows the outcome, and he regrets that he had to kill the three finest knights in the kingdom, even years later. If Lyanna had been kidnapped or mistreated while they were present Ned would not have that favorable view of these men. These three Kingsguard are undoubtedly living up to their "vow to guard the king", in Hightower's own words, to gain Ned's greatest respect. As fate has it, because these men were so honorable, on both sides of this meeting, they were fated to fight to the bitter end, for honor’s sake.

We also have the text of the white book about Ser Gerold Hightower from the screenplay. Dispatched by King Areys to locate the crown Prince Rhaegar Targaryen in the wake of Robert Baratheon's rebellion. Died in the Red Mountains of Dorne alongside his sworn brothers, Ser Arthur Dayne and Ser Oswell Whent. After refusing to bow to the new King, Robert Baratheon, all three were defeated by a small force led by Eddard Stark of Winterfell

[FittleLinger]

IF THIS THEORY WAS TRUE:

Why would there be a battle at the ToJ? Wouldn't the guards allow Ned entry? Why didn't Lyanna stop it? (She is said to have had this fever which develops over DAYS, meaning she would have had the child when Ned arrived and she could've sent down a handmaiden anyway, or shouted down if possible). Why did Lyanna allow Rhaegar to fight against his brother knowing one would ultimately have to die.

E+A=J!

Rhaegar never fought against his brother. Please, get your facts straight, because that way you can't be taken seriously. Also, each and every single one of those questions are answered in the OP of the thread, or in the disambiguation of the conversation that MtnLion kindly keeps providing. You seem to ignore everyone's pleas to simply read what has been written.

[Ygrain]

Here you go, Ygrain:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/107636-book-spoilers-rlj-and-other-theories-on-hbo/

Edit: My 2,000th post was me being helpful. I now feel accomplished. :P

Glad to have been the means for such a meaningful post :-)

IF THIS THEORY WAS TRUE:

Why would there be a battle at the ToJ? Wouldn't the guards allow Ned entry? Why didn't Lyanna stop it? (She is said to have had this fever which develops over DAYS, meaning she would have had the child when Ned arrived and she could've sent down a handmaiden anyway, or shouted down if possible). Why did Lyanna allow Rhaegar to fight against his brother knowing one would ultimately have to die.

E+A=J!

Because we have so many hints at Ned hooking up with Ashara during the Rebellion... oh... wait...

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Poor Ashara... she only danced with some nice guys and now everybody attributes her about 10 kids with 20 different men... =(

[Britisher]

First of all:

Rhaegar didn't fight his brother :) He fought his cousin. And he did so, because his house was being threatened.

Second. Why would there be a battle at ToJ? Because Ned, the honourable man that he is, choose a rebel king over his Targaryen king. Honour bound by Ned, the KG could not predict that Ned would not take the baby to Robert. Perhaps Ned would not mean the child any harm in their eyes, but Ned's honesty would make him most likely to tell his new king, and that would endanger Jon.

Lyanna had a fever, her voice was weak. So no, she did not possess the strength to go down herself an stop it. And I don't know about you, but I wouldn't send an unarmed woman into a battle where 10 men are fighting until the death. The beginning of the encounter was civil talk. But once the battle started... it was most likely too late.

1. Yes after he 'stole' Lyanna. Why would she allow her love and her brother to fight eachother - and by that I MEAN they were in a state of war with eachother (I know this involved other factions) but her 'stealing' was what brought the war on.

2. Eddard has shown himself to chose family over honour. If not why adopt Jon - a bastard - and effectively stain his families honour forever. Why would he allow Jon to be equal to his other children? Why did he confess to attempting to usurp the throne? If Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love Lyanna would order him to end the war or flee to save her brother, wouldn't she?

3. Are you kidding? If she was in control of the situation she would have the ability to ORDER the kingsguard to step aside. Again, she could've send a guard/handmaiden down to stop it or went herself.

[Chebyshov]

Poor Ashara... she only danced with some nice guys and now everybody attributes her about 10 kids with 20 different men... =(

Well she was a maid with "laughing purple eyes," so clearly she was lascivious. And also eager to travel through a war-torn country for a sweet meet-up with a guy she danced with once? Yikes.

[Britisher]

Because we have so many hints at Ned hooking up with Ashara during the Rebellion... oh... wait...

There are just as many pointing towards Lyanna and Rhaegar - this isn't about being 'obvious', if it were why would GRRM add in the idea of them being Jon's parents - considering 81 "official" articles about this exist. It is the most speculated rumour in ASOIAF.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Well she was a maid with "laughing purple eyes," so clearly she was lascivious. And also eager to travel through a war-torn country for a sweet meet-up with a guy she danced with once? Yikes.

I think it was Jon's QUeen Consort who called her "the Dornish whore of Babylon" because apparently, she has slept with everybody... I made a list and all the possible "dishonour"ers are around 10... :lol:

[sj4iy]

There are just as many pointing towards Lyanna and Rhaegar - this isn't about being 'obvious', if it were why would GRRM add in the idea of them being Jon's parents - considering 81 "official" articles about this exist. It is the most speculated rumour in ASOIAF.

If it weren't so obvious, then there wouldn't be so many threads about it, now would there?

/yes, I know, I shouldn't feed trolls