R+L=J v 81

[Ygrain]

1. Yes after he 'stole' Lyanna. Why would she allow her love and her brother to fight eachother - and by that I MEAN they were in a state of war with eachother (I know this involved other factions) but her 'stealing' was what brought the war on.

2. Eddard has shown himself to chose family over honour. If not why adopt Jon - a bastard - and effectively stain his families honour forever. Why would he allow Jon to be equal to his other children? Why did he confess to attempting to usurp the throne? If Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love Lyanna would order him to end the war or flee to save her brother, wouldn't she?

3. Are you kidding? If she was in control of the situation she would have the ability to ORDER the kingsguard to step aside. Again, she could've send a guard/handmaiden down to stop it or went herself.

There are just as many pointing towards Lyanna and Rhaegar - this isn't about being 'obvious', if it were why would GRRM add in the idea of them being Jon's parents - considering 81 "official" articles about this exist. It is the most speculated rumour in ASOIAF.

You really ought to get yourself a better copy of ASOIAF. In the official one, the war was started in response to Aerys' demand for the heads of Ned and Robert, which Lyanna had no power to affect, Eddard was shown to choose family over honour after the ToJ showdown, and Lyanna was known to have disappeared with Rhaegar and spend with him the better part of the Rebellion.

Or, perhaps you might just want to quit trolling.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

1. Yes after he 'stole' Lyanna. Why would she allow her love and her brother to fight eachother - and by that I MEAN they were in a state of war with eachother (I know this involved other factions) but her 'stealing' was what brought the war on.

2. Eddard has shown himself to chose family over honour. If not why adopt Jon - a bastard - and effectively stain his families honour forever. Why would he allow Jon to be equal to his other children? Why did he confess to attempting to usurp the throne? If Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love Lyanna would order him to end the war or flee to save her brother, wouldn't she?

3. Are you kidding? If she was in control of the situation she would have the ability to ORDER the kingsguard to step aside. Again, she could've send a guard/handmaiden down to stop it or went herself.

1. Ned went to war because a crazy king was screaming for his head, whilst he hadn't done anything that was worth losing his head for.

2. Eddard showed himself chosing family over honour, yes.... after the war was done. The Kingsguards are supposed to be the best knights in the realm, I know, but not even they can look into the future :) And Lyanna could wish whatever she wanted from Rhaegar... Rhaegar wasn't in control. That was Aerys, don't forget.

3. Really? Lyanna would have ordered the KG? On what ground? If Rhaegar ordered the KG to keep his child safe, his order would overrule any contradicting order from Lyanna. As to going herself, if she's took weak to talk, she's too weak to walk. And you seem to be so sure there was a guard... She had three, in fact, and they were outside, fighting.. As to the handmaiden, I've already explained that. In addition to it being extremely risky to run into a fight without armor, and weapons, Lyanna, as weak as she seems to have been, could not have been left alone, especially not with a small infant, so a handmaiden with no power of order over the KG could try and stop a fight.

[MtnLion]

1. Yes after he 'stole' Lyanna. Why would she allow her love and her brother to fight eachother - and by that I MEAN they were in a state of war with eachother (I know this involved other factions) but her 'stealing' was what brought the war on.

2. Eddard has shown himself to chose family over honour. If not why adopt Jon - a bastard - and effectively stain his families honour forever. Why would he allow Jon to be equal to his other children? Why did he confess to attempting to usurp the throne? If Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love Lyanna would order him to end the war or flee to save her brother, wouldn't she?

3. Are you kidding? If she was in control of the situation she would have the ability to ORDER the kingsguard to step aside. Again, she could've send a guard/handmaiden down to stop it or went herself.

What brought the war on was Aerys demanding that Jon Arryn send him the heads of Robert and Ned. It was at that point that Jon, Robert and Ned raised their banners.

Jon is not necessarily a bastard, as I demonstrated above. Jon is really likely to be the rightful heir to the Iron Throne and the Seven Kingdoms. That is why the Kingsguard protected him at the tower of joy rather than taking Ned’s offer to retreat to Dragonstone and protect Viserys.

Ned took Jon and described him as a bastard, because he promised Lyanna something, likely to protect Jon and perhaps to help him take his birthright when the time was right. Jon is not the equal to Ned’s other children in this arrangement. (Ned’s confession is beside the point, here.)

First I would imagine that Lyanna and Rhaegar would need to get the news, and understand it. Then they would need to discuss what can be done that had not already been done. Obviously learning about a war starting some months back doesn’t help end it, now. We know that Rhaegar and Robert met in battle, what did Rhaegar try to tell Robert? What negotiations did he try to make before Robert let his rage flood him leading to Rhaegar’s death?

If Lyanna was in control of the situation? Not bloody likely! The Lord Commander of the Kingsguard is present, and his word is the law in this situation. Unless you start with conceding that Rhaegar and Lyanna are wed, then we get a little leeway. However, I think that the marriage was what forced Hightower to stay at the tower after having found Rhaegar. Under threat from opposing forces (Ned and his six friends) the three Kingsguard will answer to no one other than their Lord Commander and the king. (Don’t get confused by Cersei’s manipulation of the less than adequate Kingsguards in current events. And, Ned does mention where Queen Rhaella is.)

[Ghost's Shadow]

Reading Dance, Tyrion I and came across this:

In the end, Tyrion chose a cask of strongwine marked as the private stock of Lord Runceford Redwyne, the grandfather of the present Lord of the Arbor. The taste of it was languorous and heady on the tongue, the color a purple so dark that it looked almost black in the dim-lit cellar.

Reminded me of someone's eyes. ;)

[Ygrain]

Reading Dance, Tyrion I and came across this:

Reminded me of someone's eyes. ;)

A nice catch :-)

I speculated the other day that one reason why Ned didn't want Jon in KL might be the brighter southern sunshine which would bring out a peculiar shade in Jon's eyes :P

[Ghost's Shadow]

Who knows? :D

[Chebyshov]

I feel like glare off of the snow on a sunny day would do the same, lol. But that's definitely a good catch; very similar wording:

"Jon's eyes were a grey so dark they seeme d almost black, but there was little they did not see"

[Ygrain]

I feel like glare off of the snow on a sunny day would do the same, lol.

I'm not a painter nor travelled that much but I heard that in different latitudes, sunshine is different and colours look different, and I did notice that by the seaside, the sky looked bluer, almost purplish. Perhaps there might be something to it.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Poor Ashara... she only danced with some nice guys and now everybody attributes her about 10 kids with 20 different men... =(

I know, she is by far the loosest girl in the books.

[Mdoggy]

Robert was drunk and Lyanna unsupervised at Harenhall Tourney so it is possible for him to attempt to have her

that could have scared her off

[Chebyshov]

I'm not a painter nor travelled that much but I heard that in different latitudes, sunshine is different and colours look different, and I did notice that by the seaside, the sky looked bluer, almost purplish. Perhaps there might be something to it.

I guess maybe, and obviously Ned couldn't exactly get away with the Tyroshi hair-dye solution.

[Twatbeards conspiracy]

I personally believe that Lyanna is Jon's mom because of Ned's behavior toward Jon but I am not sure if Rhegar is necessarily the father.

I do not think Lyanna would just run away from everyone and go galavanting off with Rhegar. It seems a bit out of character. She is a wild woman who refused to be swept off her feet by Robert.

She hated Robert because Robert fathered bastards and she believed that he would be unfaithful when they were married. She was against unfaithfulness in her future mariage.

So why would she run off with a married man? She hated Robert because he was going to cheat so why would she be Rhegar's mistress?

That part does not add up.

Could Lyanna have run away because Robert had abused her?

Robert whispered Lyanna in Ceseri's ear on their wedding night. Was it wishful thinking or maybe had he taken her to bed before?

If Robert did abuse Lyanna, she could have run away because she was angry

Rhegar could have taken her in to comfort her or keep her safe. Meanwhile, Arys burns Lord Rickon and strangles Brandon.

Robert's rebellion started and Lyanna becomes an evan more valuable hostage after it is realized that Robert got her pregnant. So after she gives birth, they will have Robert's fiance and his bastard as hostages.

Why would Ned hide Jon's identity?

a. Maybe Lyanna asked him to. "Promise me Ned"

b. Maybe he did not think Robert would be a good father (Mya Stone anyone)

c. Robert needed to marry and produce a indisputably legitimate heir so Jon would be bad for that

d. It would cause political drama

e. Robert's hand would become a prize for one of the loyal houses

f. wanted to raise Lyanna's kid cuz he thought he failed Lyanna.

If Jon's identity was revealed, Robert would have legitimized him and probably lost some support.

If his identity was revealed now and he was legitimized by Robb....

He could be heir to

A. the north through Lyanna or Robb

B. The Stormlands through Robert

C. Dragon Stone through Stannis (if he dies)

E. The Iron throne. (after Tommen)

He could go from the LC of the night watch to one of the most important ppl in Westeros.

His Nights watch vows are keeping him from it. but if he dies then comes back to life....

"and thus his watch has ended"

If he were Roberts, why lie and say Ned was the father? Robert would've legitimized Jon, had Ned foster him at WF safe from Cersei and Tywin, and that little shit Joffrey would've never come to power. Also hotheaded Brandon and Bobby would've fought over Lyanna if there had been abuse before marriage, hell he DID challenge the crown prince in the damn capital to how did elegantly put it? Oh, yea, come out and die.

[Leonardo]

Hmm

Some good research on the fact that why run off with Rhaegar when he's married, when she was just chiding Ned about Robert for it.

Now that I think about it, that is some complete bullshit reasoning from Lyanna.

[Moondancer]

OK, guys, I need some assistance -

In the promotional pdf for TWoIaF, above the top left illustrations, the Winterfell and Valyria, there's a passage that touches on Rhaegar and Lyanna. It goes (I think) like this:

When the Stark Lord was newly ________ by Mad King Aerys after Rhaegar's abduction of Lyanna, some misguided men laid the blame at the ________ of the late Lord.

Let's fill in the blanks?

There's also - "Rickard whose affiliates (not sure about this) by blood..." in addition to two more fragmented lines.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I think it says this:

When the Stark line was obliviated by Mad King Aerys after Rhaegars abduction of Lyanna, some misguided men laid the blame at the feet of the late Lord Rickard, whose allegiances by blood (end text). great houses together and ?? (end text). together and responded to the Mand King (end text).

[Moondancer]

Aha! But the line wasn't obliviated, was it? Only the firstborn son died. OK, and Rickard. :)

[Deadwood]

Obliterated?

[Disputatious]

Obliterated?

Probably, but according to the O.E.D., "obliviate" means "to forget" or to "consign to oblivion". It also says that the word is rare and obsolete, the last usage recorded being from the 1840's. Perhaps they can add these posts as a revival of the word, albeit with a somewhat different meaning. Har!

[Ghost's Shadow]

It was a spell in Harry Potter, you silly.

[Disputatious]

It was a spell in Harry Potter, you silly.

Hm... I read some of the Potter novels a few years ago, but don't remember that (or much else). Do you suppose Rowland consulted the O.E.D. before using that word for a spell name, or just decided that she liked the sound of it?