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R+L=J v 81


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But it would fit if he was the Stark who dishonoured Ashara at Harrenhal, right?

Not saying this is how it actually happened.. But perhaps some of it..?

It would, definitely. As I was paging through AGOT, though, I realized that my unfavourable impression of Brandon goes back as far as that - a man of twenty duels a boy of fifteen, his betrothed pleads with him not to kill the boy, yet he delivers a blow that is nearly fatal. Granted, LF was refusing to yield, but really - was there no other way for a faster and stronger opponent to end the fight?

Also, one more thing that I can't wrap my head around: Brandon's departure from Riverrun. Why do we learn only from the app that he was to meet the wedding party? And, why did he ride to meet Rickard at all if the party was only a few days away? Perhaps it is just me but I cannot get rid of a gut feeling that there might be more to this. What was Brandon doing in the South in the first place? Was he summoned by LF to the duel? Did he take a several weeks' journey just to say hello to his betrothed, and LF took the chance to duel him? Or might he have had some other errands to attend, like getting news about Ashara?

I also wonder what Arthur Dayne thought of the man who dishonoured his sister and whether he knew his identity, and, since he was Rhaegar's BF, Rhaegar might have known, as well. Now, if Rhaegar and Arthur ran into Brandon somewhere on the roads, it probably wouldn't come to blows but I suppose that both Arthur and Rhaegar would give him their piece of mind - which might explain why Brandon later got in a state of fury when he "learned about Lyanna" (whatever it was he heard). Given that Rhaegar unhorsed him at HH, he might have held some grudge ever since then, and getting a tongue lashing from the guy who was about to elope with his sister would certainly contribute to the infamous "come out and die".

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True, she could have just been a pretty girl he wanted to dance with, but do you think he could have killed her?Pushed her off a cliff as the poster above suggested?

Not suggesting Ned pushed her, just that she was pushed. And it's just for consideration; I don't even think it's likely. Could GRRM be so diabolical?

How established is it that Ashara was actually pregnant? We have two babies (Jon & a stillborn girl), with three potential mothers, and one who definitely carried a child (to be a wet nurse).

Ser Barristan remembers a stillborn girl, but that may be why Wylla was able to be the wet nurse. Just doing some math...

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It would, definitely. As I was paging through AGOT, though, I realized that my unfavourable impression of Brandon goes back as far as that - a man of twenty duels a boy of fifteen, his betrothed pleads with him not to kill the boy, yet he delivers a blow that is nearly fatal. Granted, LF was refusing to yield, but really - was there no other way for a faster and stronger opponent to end the fight?

Also, one more thing that I can't wrap my head around: Brandon's departure from Riverrun. Why do we learn only from the app that he was to meet the wedding party? And, why did he ride to meet Rickard at all if the party was only a few days away? Perhaps it is just me but I cannot get rid of a gut feeling that there might be more to this. What was Brandon doing in the South in the first place? Was he summoned by LF to the duel? Did he take a several weeks' journey just to say hello to his betrothed, and LF took the chance to duel him? Or might he have had some other errands to attend, like getting news about Ashara?

I also wonder what Arthur Dayne thought of the man who dishonoured his sister and whether he knew his identity, and, since he was Rhaegar's BF, Rhaegar might have known, as well. Now, if Rhaegar and Arthur ran into Brandon somewhere on the roads, it probably wouldn't come to blows but I suppose that both Arthur and Rhaegar would give him their piece of mind - which might explain why Brandon later got in a state of fury when he "learned about Lyanna" (whatever it was he heard). Given that Rhaegar unhorsed him at HH, he might have held some grudge ever since then, and getting a tongue lashing from the guy who was about to elope with his sister would certainly contribute to the infamous "come out and die".

Yes I feel the same way, like I started disliking him right from the beginning, but Ned thinks highly of him, so I am conflicted. I agree he went way overboard with his treatment of LF. I mean what's your problem dude? here we have a low born boy who is in love with beautiful Cat, she never did anything with him, maybe 1 kiss. And Brandon feels he has to almost kill the guy, even though Cat was begging him not too. I mean superiority complex much? Maybe LF would not have grown up so evil if all that had not happened

I mean he seems like a Type A to me...Did it even occur to him at all that Lyanna might be happiest with Rhaegar? It seems like what she wanted was the absolute last thing on Brandon's mind. If I had to guess, Brandon was still just pissed about getting unhorsed at HH. maybe something else happened we dont know of yet......

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I mean he seems like a Type A to me...Did it even occur to him at all that Lyanna might be happiest with Rhaegar? It seems like what she wanted was the absolute last thing on Brandon's mind. If I had to guess, Brandon was still just pissed about getting unhorsed at HH. maybe something else happened we dont know of yet......

All I could think of was "Westeros 90210."

Who likes who, passing notes in the cafeteria.

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I recall reading someone post here... I think it might have been stateofdissipation.. that they believe Rhaegar was at the Red Keep when Brandon stormed in but hid because he was afraid of him. Thoughts?

If Rhaegar had just unhorsed him at HH why would he be scared to come out and talk to Brandon?

Anyway I thought Rhaegar was already 'fled' with Lyanna at that point? If Brandon was there to call him out because LYanna was kidnapped....then it would make sense that they wouldnt be at KL.

Ya know the more I think about it Ygrain must be right about something else happening to BRandon we dont know about. Why would he be so certain that Rhaegar would take Lyanna to KL after he kidnapped her, especially with Elia and the kids there and everything....Just seems like someone also told Brandon that Rhaegar was specifically at KL with Lyanna...right?

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Also, one more thing that I can't wrap my head around: Brandon's departure from Riverrun. Why do we learn only from the app that he was to meet the wedding party? And, why did he ride to meet Rickard at all if the party was only a few days away? Perhaps it is just me but I cannot get rid of a gut feeling that there might be more to this. What was Brandon doing in the South in the first place? Was he summoned by LF to the duel? Did he take a several weeks' journey just to say hello to his betrothed, and LF took the chance to duel him? Or might he have had some other errands to attend, like getting news about Ashara?

Wild speculation: Supposing Brandon and company go to Harrenhal, to pick up Lyanna, to then join Rickard on the road. To eventually go to Riverrun for the wedding.

Rhaegar and company take Lyanna from Brandon. Brandon is so mad because he was made to look the fool.

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It would, definitely. As I was paging through AGOT, though, I realized that my unfavourable impression of Brandon goes back as far as that - a man of twenty duels a boy of fifteen, his betrothed pleads with him not to kill the boy, yet he delivers a blow that is nearly fatal. Granted, LF was refusing to yield, but really - was there no other way for a faster and stronger opponent to end the fight?

  1. Also, one more thing that I can't wrap my head around: Brandon's departure from Riverrun. Why do we learn only from the app that he was to meet the wedding party?

And, why did he ride to meet Rickard at all if the party was only a few days away?

Perhaps it is just me but I cannot get rid of a gut feeling that there might be more to this. What was Brandon doing in the South in the first place?

Was he summoned by LF to the duel?

Did he take a several weeks' journey just to say hello to his betrothed, and LF took the chance to duel him?

Or might he have had some other errands to attend, like getting news about Ashara?

  1. That is an interesting bit to things.

I think that there must be more of a reason than just to meet the wedding party.

Brandon went to answer Littlefinger's challenge.

Littlefinger heard about Catelyn's betrothal to Brandon (when the snows lifted I recall from somewhere) and challenged, as was his right. Catelyn didn't care for Littlefinger, but he wouldn't let that stop him from winning his heart's desire.

As mentioned earlier Brandon goes to Riverrun to answer Littlefinger's challenge that was issued when the betrothal was announced.

He may have had some other errands, like collecting his little sister from her bout of tilting at rings. We have absolutely no indication that Ashara might have been involved with Brandon. The only indication we have is about Ned and Ashara being in love, but that is questionable, too, based upon the source.

I like speculating as much as the next person. I think that there is enough unfounded speculation about Ashara and who dishonored her, though. I am almost convinced that if Barristan knew who had dishonored Ashara that he would certainly have told the king . . .

ETA: Oops, missed the first question which is the one that prompted the response. Brandon (according to an account that I cannot remember) offered Littlefinger a chance to yield seven times, without delivering that nearly fatal wound. I can see Littlefinger defenseless on each of those seven occasions, but refusing to yield until death knocks seems kind of silly, if not determined.

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Also, one more thing that I can't wrap my head around: Brandon's departure from Riverrun. Why do we learn only from the app that he was to meet the wedding party? And, why did he ride to meet Rickard at all if the party was only a few days away? Perhaps it is just me but I cannot get rid of a gut feeling that there might be more to this. What was Brandon doing in the South in the first place? Was he summoned by LF to the duel? Did he take a several weeks' journey just to say hello to his betrothed, and LF took the chance to duel him? Or might he have had some other errands to attend, like getting news about Ashara.

Do you think that Ned was aware of Brandon's interest in Ashara and that might be one of the reasons he forbade her name being mentioned at Winterfell? He knew it would hurt Catelyn.

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What I think the conclusion regarding the Stark bastards should be, is that there are barely any officially acknowledged bastards. There could be many bastards around, just not officially acknowledged ones.

Well, the only acknowledge bastard of Robert's was Edric Storm. And he had to acknowledge Edric because the mother was highborn (Delenna Florent) and the manner and timing of the conception (Stannis and Selyse's wedding night).

So, perhaps bastards were only acknowledged when the mother's were highborn or the timing of conception left no doubt (or there were other factors that left no doubt, like Ramsay Snow/Bolton's eye colour). Which could say something about Jon, if there is no R+L=J ( or as I think, R+L=x, but x=/=J)

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Do you think that Ned was aware of Brandon's interest in Ashara and that might be one of the reasons he forbade her name being mentioned at Winterfell? He knew it would hurt Catelyn.

Do we know if Catelyn knew about Brandon's (temporary) interests in Ashara, and that he possibly slept with her?

I always assumed Ned didn't want Ashara's name mentioned in Winterfell because he's more honourable than letting people gossip about a high-born, dead woman like that.

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Do you think that Ned was aware of Brandon's interest in Ashara and that might be one of the reasons he forbade her name being mentioned at Winterfell? He knew it would hurt Catelyn.

I don't think that Cat knew. I presume Ned wouldn't want Ashara's name besmirched any further, knowing that it was his brother who dishonoured her and caused her suicide, and he felt bad about what happened to her - if he did have a crush on her himself, even more so.

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I don't think that Cat knew. I presume Ned wouldn't want Ashara's name besmirched any further, knowing that it was his brother who dishonoured her and caused her suicide, and he felt bad about what happened to her - if he did have a crush on her himself, even more so.

I think that Ashara did not suicide... no body ever found... but faked her suicide. Probably the septa with Aegon... in which case a baby switch (with Elia's Aegon) or Aegon being Ashara's son is possible. As about the stillborn child that Selmy mentioned s what the rumors say... cause Varys and his company wouldn't want even the possibility of an alive boy (child) of Ashara's to be known...

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I think that Ashara did not suicide... no body ever found... but faked her suicide. Probably the septa with Aegon... in which case a baby switch (with Elia's Aegon) or Aegon being Ashara's son is possible. As about the stillborn child that Selmy mentioned s what the rumors say... cause Varys and his company wouldn't want even the possibility of an alive boy (child) of Ashara's to be known...

Well, there's a lot of issues with the Ashara = Septa Lemore theory but I guess it's possible? I'd peg it as unlikely.

I don't think that Cat knew. I presume Ned wouldn't want Ashara's name besmirched any further, knowing that it was his brother who dishonoured her and caused her suicide, and he felt bad about what happened to her - if he did have a crush on her himself, even more so.

This was my thinking on it. I think Ned knows that Ashara went through a lot of shit in a very small amount of time, and didn't want her name dragged into it. Also I think Ned may have been trying to dissuade Cat from playing a guessing game to figure out Jon's mother. The last thing he wants is anyone perceiving it as a mystery. Better to lie and say it was Wylla and be done with it.

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This was my thinking on it. I think Ned knows that Ashara went through a lot of shit in a very small amount of time, and didn't want her name dragged into it. Also I think Ned may have been trying to dissuade Cat from playing a guessing game to figure out Jon's mother. The last thing he wants is anyone perceiving it as a mystery. Better to lie and say it was Wylla and be done with it.

Only, he didn't say it was Wylla, except Robert. There were only some rumours of Jon's mother being commonborn.

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Only, he didn't say it was Wylla, except Robert. There were only some rumours of Jon's mother being commonborn.

Ah, good point. I assumed that if he was willing to lie about Wylla to Robert he might have evoked her name before, but Cat doesn't even suggest her. I guess Ned only lies when he absolutely has to? And when he does, it is...not without honor.

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