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R+L=J v 81


Stubby

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Ah, good point. I assumed that if he was willing to lie about Wylla to Robert he might have evoked her name before, but Cat doesn't even suggest her. I guess Ned only lies when he absolutely has to? And when he does, it is...not without honor.

That is my take, as well.

Plus, if he gave a name, tongues might start wagging who she was and when and where Ned might have had a chance to meet her. Better not to give any food for thought, I guess - but to Robert he had to provide a name.

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It would, definitely. As I was paging through AGOT, though, I realized that my unfavourable impression of Brandon goes back as far as that - a man of twenty duels a boy of fifteen, his betrothed pleads with him not to kill the boy, yet he delivers a blow that is nearly fatal. Granted, LF was refusing to yield, but really - was there no other way for a faster and stronger opponent to end the fight?

Also, one more thing that I can't wrap my head around: Brandon's departure from Riverrun. Why do we learn only from the app that he was to meet the wedding party? And, why did he ride to meet Rickard at all if the party was only a few days away? Perhaps it is just me but I cannot get rid of a gut feeling that there might be more to this. What was Brandon doing in the South in the first place? Was he summoned by LF to the duel? Did he take a several weeks' journey just to say hello to his betrothed, and LF took the chance to duel him? Or might he have had some other errands to attend, like getting news about Ashara?

I also wonder what Arthur Dayne thought of the man who dishonoured his sister and whether he knew his identity, and, since he was Rhaegar's BF, Rhaegar might have known, as well. Now, if Rhaegar and Arthur ran into Brandon somewhere on the roads, it probably wouldn't come to blows but I suppose that both Arthur and Rhaegar would give him their piece of mind - which might explain why Brandon later got in a state of fury when he "learned about Lyanna" (whatever it was he heard). Given that Rhaegar unhorsed him at HH, he might have held some grudge ever since then, and getting a tongue lashing from the guy who was about to elope with his sister would certainly contribute to the infamous "come out and die".

I agree, the LF situation could have been dealt with better by Brandon. Even if the boy didn't want to yield, just kick his feet out from under him and knock him unconscious.. That wound was not necessary.

That Brandon was at Riverrun when his engagement was officially announced, is not that strange to me. It was something official, after all. That Brandon returned north would not be so strange either. It only becomes strange if meeting up with Rickard and the men coming south was the only thing Brandon was doing. Perhaps Brandon had some other, secret "mission" that his father didn't know about. I first suspected he went to see Barbary, but the app, IIRC, seems to suggest their last night together was before the announcement about Brandons wedding, and in that case, that can't have been it. Perhaps it had something to do with other potential little Snows running around in the north? It can't have been too far out of the route, or otherwise people would start to wonder what was taking Brandon so long...

That Brandon mighy have encountered Rhaegar/Arthur/Oswell on the road seems unlikely to me. That timing would be rather coincidental.. But it would also depend on Lyanna's location.

I recall reading someone post here... I think it might have been stateofdissipation.. that they believe Rhaegar was at the Red Keep when Brandon stormed in but hid because he was afraid of him. Thoughts?

No, I don't believe for a second that Rhaegar was afraid of Brandon. Or that he was in the Red Keep. Bringing Lyanna close to Aerys could destroy everything Rhaegar might have had in mind in a few seconds.. Aerys' moods were terrible in those last few years.

My money is on Littlefinger having said something to him. Just a hunch.

LF, as said by GRRM, was too severely hurt to have had anything to do with Brandon. He nearly died.

  1. That is an interesting bit to things.

I think that there must be more of a reason than just to meet the wedding party.

Brandon went to answer Littlefinger's challenge.

Littlefinger heard about Catelyn's betrothal to Brandon (when the snows lifted I recall from somewhere) and challenged, as was his right. Catelyn didn't care for Littlefinger, but he wouldn't let that stop him from winning his heart's desire.

As mentioned earlier Brandon goes to Riverrun to answer Littlefinger's challenge that was issued when the betrothal was announced.

He may have had some other errands, like collecting his little sister from her bout of tilting at rings. We have absolutely no indication that Ashara might have been involved with Brandon. The only indication we have is about Ned and Ashara being in love, but that is questionable, too, based upon the source.

I like speculating as much as the next person. I think that there is enough unfounded speculation about Ashara and who dishonored her, though. I am almost convinced that if Barristan knew who had dishonored Ashara that he would certainly have told the king . . .

ETA: Oops, missed the first question which is the one that prompted the response. Brandon (according to an account that I cannot remember) offered Littlefinger a chance to yield seven times, without delivering that nearly fatal wound. I can see Littlefinger defenseless on each of those seven occasions, but refusing to yield until death knocks seems kind of silly, if not determined.

Why would Barristan tell Aerys who dishonored Ashara? It was Ashara's own choice, since if not, I assume she would have told someone (Arthur, for example, who I can't see standing aside after someone has hurt his sister). If any coupling at Harrenhal was Ashara's own choice, telling Aerys who it was would change nothing.

Well, the only acknowledge bastard of Robert's was Edric Storm. And he had to acknowledge Edric because the mother was highborn (Delenna Florent) and the manner and timing of the conception (Stannis and Selyse's wedding night).

So, perhaps bastards were only acknowledged when the mother's were highborn or the timing of conception left no doubt (or there were other factors that left no doubt, like Ramsay Snow/Bolton's eye colour). Which could say something about Jon, if there is no R+L=J ( or as I think, R+L=x, but x=/=J)

Yep, Edric was such a case that Robert could not deny. But it has been suggested in an SSM by GRRM, IIRC (and correct me if I'm wrong please) that it could potentially be possible that Brandon had left a few little Snows around in the North. But without acknowledging them, or telling about them to his family, the mothers can't prove anything.

It could be fairly possible that several of the Stark men had bastards. But to start, they'd have to know about those bastards themselves. If that hasn't happened, than family tree wise, you get nowhere.

Acknowledging a bastard doesn't mean the mother has to be highborn.. Look at Mya Stone and Ramsay Snow. No highborn mothers for them. And though Roose was in need of an heir, Mya could have gone unacknowledged all her life, while Robert acknowledged her, spend time with her, and even remembered her years later, suggesting life at court for her.

Do we know if Catelyn knew about Brandon's (temporary) interests in Ashara, and that he possibly slept with her?

I always assumed Ned didn't want Ashara's name mentioned in Winterfell because he's more honourable than letting people gossip about a high-born, dead woman like that.

I don't think that Cat knew. I presume Ned wouldn't want Ashara's name besmirched any further, knowing that it was his brother who dishonoured her and caused her suicide, and he felt bad about what happened to her - if he did have a crush on her himself, even more so.

In response to both Ygrain and Ghost´s Shadow±

Exactly. For all Ned knows, Ashara is dead. And she suffered, and he knew that. She lost a child and either she loved Brandon, who died, or Ned, who got married to another woman and around this time already had a child by that other woman. The deaths in the capitol must have been difficult on her as well, since she knew those people from her years at court. No matter which theory is true, in Neds eyes, Ashara had suffered greatly, and it would be honourable of Ned to not let her get a negative image after life.

Though, as I am typing, it would be unlike Ned to let another woman take the fall for something Lyanna had done, and he was lying about.

I think that Ashara did not suicide... no body ever found... but faked her suicide. Probably the septa with Aegon... in which case a baby switch (with Elia's Aegon) or Aegon being Ashara's son is possible. As about the stillborn child that Selmy mentioned s what the rumors say... cause Varys and his company wouldn't want even the possibility of an alive boy (child) of Ashara's to be known...

No matter which Ashara theory is true, for as far as Ned knew Ashara was dead.

That is my take, as well.

Plus, if he gave a name, tongues might start wagging who she was and when and where Ned might have had a chance to meet her. Better not to give any food for thought, I guess - but to Robert he had to provide a name.

Luckily for Ned Robert is not the one to overthink things like that :) :P

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That is my take, as well.

Plus, if he gave a name, tongues might start wagging who she was and when and where Ned might have had a chance to meet her. Better not to give any food for thought, I guess - but to Robert he had to provide a name.

Also, IIRC, Robert knew (or knew of) Wylla, and was talking about her, fishing for the name he couldn't remember. Which was why Ned named her.

ETA:

Yep, Edric was such a case that Robert could not deny. But it has been suggested in an SSM by GRRM, IIRC (and correct me if I'm wrong please) that it could potentially be possible that Brandon had left a few little Snows around in the North. But without acknowledging them, or telling about them to his family, the mothers can't prove anything.

It could be fairly possible that several of the Stark men had bastards. But to start, they'd have to know about those bastards themselves. If that hasn't happened, than family tree wise, you get nowhere.

Acknowledging a bastard doesn't mean the mother has to be highborn.. Look at Mya Stone and Ramsay Snow. No highborn mothers for them. And though Roose was in need of an heir, Mya could have gone unacknowledged all her life, while Robert acknowledged her, spend time with her, and even remembered her years later, suggesting life at court for her.

Was Mya actually acknowledged, though? I know that Lyanna (or someone) mentioned that there was a rumour that Robert got a child on a woman of the Vale; and I remember Catelyn's reaction to meeting Mya, and her disapproval that she was a Stone and therefore a bastard. But I don't remember reading that Mya had been acknowledged. In fact, as far as I can remember, I only knew she was one of Robert's from the appendices, though Littlefinger may have said something to Ned. I've only read the books once (so far...)

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Is it possible that LF set up the Rhaegar abducted Lyanna lie to get Brandin to act? Getting retribution for the ass beating that happened earlier?

No, since LF was dangerously injured, close to dying even. When he was strong enough to be moved again, he was not yet out of danger, but Hoster, angered at what LF had done, seems to have wanted LF out of Riverrun as quickly as possible. LF continued his healing on the Fingers, and it seems that took quite some time. No messing around with people's heads for LF around this time.

Understandable. It wouldn't really make a good impression on Brandon and Rickard if the guy who challanged the groom for the hand of the bride was still around during the wedding.

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Also, IIRC, Robert knew (or knew of) Wylla, and was talking about her, fishing for the name he couldn't remember. Which was why Ned named her.

Heard about... He asks Ned what she looked like.. So he never saw her himself.

He was definitly fishing for a name, so Ned gave one, and then abruptly stopped the conversation.

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No, since LF was dangerously injured, close to dying even. When he was strong enough to be moved again, he was not yet out of danger, but Hoster, angered at what LF had done, seems to have wanted LF out of Riverrun as quickly as possible. LF continued his healing on the Fingers, and it seems that took quite some time. No messing around with people's heads for LF around this time.

Understandable. It wouldn't really make a good impression on Brandon and Rickard if the guy who challanged the groom for the hand of the bride was still around during the wedding.

Wow, ok I didn't know LF was messed up that bad. I knew his pride was severely hurt but didn't realize he was so close to death.
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Wow, ok I didn't know LF was messed up that bad. I knew his pride was severely hurt but didn't realize he was so close to death.

He could not be moved for a fortnight. When he could be moved in a litter, he was expelled from Riverrun.

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Why would Barristan tell Aerys who dishonored Ashara? It was Ashara's own choice, since if not, I assume she would have told someone (Arthur, for example, who I can't see standing aside after someone has hurt his sister). If any coupling at Harrenhal was Ashara's own choice, telling Aerys who it was would change nothing.

To seek justice for his beloved Ashara. I think you read me literally, though. You see that line that says Barristan wanted Ashara to look to him before looking to Stark. The "look" implies seeking justice. ;) Why Stark? Why Barristan? Why not the king? Could the king have dishonored Ashara, and Ashara looked to the strongest house, Stark, for justice? Food for thought.

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I don't think that Cat knew. I presume Ned wouldn't want Ashara's name besmirched any further, knowing that it was his brother who dishonoured her and caused her suicide, and he felt bad about what happened to her - if he did have a crush on her himself, even more so.

If it was Brandon in some way that caused her suicide, why did Ashara wait a year to kill herself. While we know that news travels slowly in Westeros, it does not go that slowly. That does not add up. (At least to me.)

Ashara would have know about both Brandon's death and Ned's marriage to Catelyn by the time Ned get to Starfall.

Makes sense that Ned would not want to besmirch Ashara's name no matter what.

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Also, IIRC, Robert knew (or knew of) Wylla, and was talking about her, fishing for the name he couldn't remember. Which was why Ned named her.

ETA:

Was Mya actually acknowledged, though? I know that Lyanna (or someone) mentioned that there was a rumour that Robert got a child on a woman of the Vale; and I remember Catelyn's reaction to meeting Mya, and her disapproval that she was a Stone and therefore a bastard. But I don't remember reading that Mya had been acknowledged. In fact, as far as I can remember, I only knew she was one of Robert's from the appendices, though Littlefinger may have said something to Ned. I've only read the books once (so far...)

I am fairly certain that Robert knew about Mya, held her at least once and that Cersei knew about her. I think she would be considered acknowledged by most correct?

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No, since LF was dangerously injured, close to dying even. When he was strong enough to be moved again, he was not yet out of danger, but Hoster, angered at what LF had done, seems to have wanted LF out of Riverrun as quickly as possible. LF continued his healing on the Fingers, and it seems that took quite some time. No messing around with people's heads for LF around this time.

Understandable. It wouldn't really make a good impression on Brandon and Rickard if the guy who challanged the groom for the hand of the bride was still around during the wedding.

Dont all signs point to Varys as the culprit who incensed Brandon to such anger? That's who my money is on. Bringing down the Targaryens by starting a feud with the Starks(best friends with the Baratheons and Arryns) seems like his cup of tea IMO.

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Dont all signs point to Varys as the culprit who incensed Brandon to such anger? That's who my money is on. Bringing down the Targaryens by starting a feud with the Starks(best friends with the Baratheons and Arryns) seems like his cup of tea IMO.

But we don't have any hints about it having been Varys, right?

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But we don't have any hints about it having been Varys, right?

No not really, but we dont really have any signs of it pointing to anyone with the given information. Didnt GRRM recently say that LF had nothing to do it? So who else is there that has been plotting to take down the Targs and put another on the IT for a decade at that point?

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That Brandon mighy have encountered Rhaegar/Arthur/Oswell on the road seems unlikely to me. That timing would be rather coincidental.. But it would also depend on Lyanna's location.

That's exactly what I meant - a coincidental meaning, the same as Cat meeting Tyrion at the Crossroads Inn. The location keeps recurring throughout the series, so it is possible that it witnessed way more than we know. Rhaegar-Brandon, Lyanna-Rhaegar, Brandon-LF...

LF, as said by GRRM, was too severely hurt to have had anything to do with Brandon. He nearly died.

No not really, but we dont really have any signs of it pointing to anyone with the given information. Didnt GRRM recently say that LF had nothing to do it? So who else is there that has been plotting to take down the Targs and put another on the IT for a decade at that point?

Could someone fish the exact phrasing of the question that GRRM answered? Because if I got it right, the question was "what was LF doing during the Rebellion?" That, IMHO, doesn't completely exclude the possibility of the above-mentioned chance meeting.

If it was Brandon in some way that caused her suicide, why did Ashara wait a year to kill herself. While we know that news travels slowly in Westeros, it does not go that slowly. That does not add up. (At least to me.)

Ashara would have know about both Brandon's death and Ned's marriage to Catelyn by the time Ned get to Starfall.

Makes sense that Ned would not want to besmirch Ashara's name no matter what.

If her child was indeed stillborn, she would have lost a lover, a child and a brother. That's enough to push someone over an edge.

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A little crackpotting again, developing on my favourite hypothesis on Ethan Glover playing a role as Rhaegar's messenger. We don't know if Rickard had Ice with him when he went to KL, but if he did, it would have been confiscated. If Rhaegar tried some secret negotiations with Ned, or had Ethan deliver a message in case of Rhaegar's death, returning the Ice would have been a smart thing to do.


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No not really, but we dont really have any signs of it pointing to anyone with the given information. Didnt GRRM recently say that LF had nothing to do it? So who else is there that has been plotting to take down the Targs and put another on the IT for a decade at that point?

I don't think it was possible to predict the outcome of such an action. Too many variables. If it was Varys, it would have been a much more focused effort rather than saying something inflammatory and hoping that it would result in the removal of the Targs. After all, Rhaegar was alive and well and hidden away in the mountains of Dorne with very few personal retainers and two KG. As far as the text goes, nothing indicates that Varys knew what was happening there. If he didn't know, he couldn't predict. Also, who could have foreseen the result of the battle at the Trident? It could have gone any which way.

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I don't think it was possible to predict the outcome of such an action. Too many variables. If it was Varys, it would have been a much more focused effort rather than saying something inflammatory and hoping that it would result in the removal of the Targs. After all, Rhaegar was alive and well and hidden away in the mountains of Dorne with very few personal retainers and two KG. As far as the text goes, nothing indicates that Varys knew what was happening there. If he didn't know, he couldn't predict. Also, who could have foreseen the result of the battle at the Trident? It could have gone any which way.

Well sure he didnt know the exact outcome. Him and ILlyrio have proven (with the GC) that even the best planning does not always render the desired outcome. Many have speculated that Varys' insistent whisperings are what made Aerys go mad in the first place. If you read the first Balckfyre conversation between Varys and ILlyrio in the Arya chapter in GOT they make it very clear that they had plans, but mainly they only wanted to stir up trouble, which is all I am saying here; incising Brandon to so much anger is an excellent way to stir up more trouble no matter what the outcome.

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Gosh. That makes him sound a lot like Petyr.

I just re-read that conversation with Illyrio. They sound like they have carefully timed a certain event and have to prevent it happening too soon. So they come up with specific ways to deal with it. Varys is careful and mindful of those who have gone beyond his reach. I'm not saying that he wouldn't take advantage of an opportunity that came his way but he would carefully factor in how the outcome could affect his purpose. If he did incite Brandon to folly, he would have had other options in position, to the point that he would have manipulated the deaths of Elia and Rhaegar and possibly even their children in order to prevent them from inheriting the throne. Could he have kids murdered? I honestly don't know but my impression of him is that he wouldn't. Anyway, Varys might or might not be responsible but we need more information.

As for Brandon, he sounds just the type of rogue who has little and less scruples about seducing high-born maidens and ruining their marriageability but becoming all puckered up righteous about 'his' women and reacting extremely, probably because he knew exactly what was on the other man's mind. Petyr Baelish dared to challenge him for Catelyn, Rhaegar ran off with his little sister. React extremely.

Robert and Brandon. Pathetic.

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