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R+L=J v 81


Stubby

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OK, one more dose then:

JKR and GRRM meet up for coffee and they're talking about their books. GRRM asks: "So, Ron and Ginny are lovers?"

JKR says, "What? No! They're brother and sister!"

I hope Your Grace is feeling better now :P

ahhhhhahahahahaha

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Just ducking in for a random question.

Do we know whatever happened to Rickards Maester? The one that Lady D seemed to not like very much.

Just speculating if he was up to no good and Ned found out about and "fired" him.

The short version is that we know nothing about Maester Walys's fate.

Only related clue (that I can think of) is that Maester Luwin delivered all of Catelyn's children.

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The short version is that we know nothing about Maester Walys's fate.

Only related clue (that I can think of) is that Maester Luwin delivered all of Catelyn's children.

Can we infer from that that Luwin came to Winterfell with Catelyn? Because Robb was not born at Winterfell...

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Also, from the new Stark family tree, looks like a little incest going on there too. :stillsick:



A Serena Stark married her half-uncle Edric, (if I'm reading that correctly though the lines don't look that different from the Rickard/Lyarra lines).



Sansa and Arya are family names apparently.



http://edelweiss-assets.abovethetreeline.com/RH/supplemental/GRRM_WOIF_SellPacket_spreads-lowres.pdf

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Also, from the new Stark family tree, looks like a little incest going on there too. :stillsick:

A Serena Stark married her half-uncle Edric, (if I'm reading that correctly though the lines don't look that different from the Rickard/Lyarra lines).

Sansa and Arya are family names apparently.

http://edelweiss-assets.abovethetreeline.com/RH/supplemental/GRRM_WOIF_SellPacket_spreads-lowres.pdf

well... as someone mentioned beforehands... it was not unusual for royal families to intermarry... and marrying among cousins was the norm... that could not considered incest in medieval times....

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well... as someone mentioned beforehands... it was not unusual for royal families to intermarry... and marrying among cousins was the norm... that could not considered incest in medieval times....

That is very true, and nothing really unusual in that sense, but uncle\niece, aunt\nephew gets a little too close to child\parent, though they were "halves." for my taste.

With what we know today, I'm a fan of diversity.

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Just ducking in for a random question.

Do we know whatever happened to Rickards Maester? The one that Lady D seemed to not like very much.

Just speculating if he was up to no good and Ned found out about and "fired" him.

Edit: I'm hearing that Neds mother has been confirmed, and she was Rickards second cousin, Lyarra, so when GRRM responded to the question, "who was Neds mother," and he replied, "Lady Stark," he wasn't kidding.

(Interesting dynamics for Jon then if true).

Won't Ygritte's views on acceptable mates have more influence on Jon? I mean, if in a particular future scenario, he will actually be given a choice.

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Won't Ygritte's views on acceptable mates have more influence on Jon? I mean, if in a particular future scenario, he will actually be given a choice.

Sorry, I should have clarified.

On both sidea of his family now, incest factors in.

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Sorry, I should have clarified.

On both sidea of his family now, incest factors in.

I know. I was just remembering his conversation with Ygritte in the cave. She very clearly thinks that if you share blood, its unacceptable. If you grew up close to each other despite not sharing any blood, of was unacceptable. I was thinking more in terms of all speculations regarding Jon forming a marriage-alliance with Arya or Sansa or Daenerys as they all fulfill one or more of these specifications. I felt it was curious for Martin to have them talk about this. Am I remembering that conversation correctly?

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I know. I was just remembering his conversation with Ygritte in the cave. She very clearly thinks that if you share blood, its unacceptable. If you grew up close to each other despite not sharing any blood, of was unacceptable. I was thinking more in terms of all speculations regarding Jon forming a marriage-alliance with Arya or Sansa or Daenerys as they all fulfill one or more of these specifications. I felt it was curious for Martin to have them talk about this. Am I remembering that conversation correctly?

Oh okay. :P

I would think she would, and I believe that converstation is correct.

Of course Ned himself married even out of the North, and Jons grandparents were all dead before he could know them. I suppose what the Author could be doing is preparing the reader for the possible eventuality of the "Jon marries one of is "sisters" scenario. There is also another theory too that he might even marry both Sansa and Arya, almost mimicking the Aegon/Visenya/Rhaenys model.

It can also be another example of two bloodlines attempting to keep themselves pure for whatever mysterious magic that gave one family the ability to skin walk and the other to bond with their dragons, but of course the current members have forgotten all of those elements.

It's almost like the Author is saying "if you think the Targaryens are strange, take a peek into the Stark family closet." :D

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It's almost like the Author is saying "if you think the Targaryens are strange, take a peek into the Stark family closet." :D




:lmao:



We'd need more family trees to establish if this is a pattern or an exception but if Tywin's marriage to Joanna is anything to go by, I'd bet on the former.



All this talk of lineages keeping to themselves could explain the family looks that are maintained throughout generations. Plus - I think I have mentioned this before - I am constantly reminded of the motive of Card's Wyrms or Herbert's Dune where joining two unique but related lineages produces a special individual. - We really need TWOW soon, I am really curious what GRRM intends to do with the motive.


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Maybe someone tried to answer this on the 80 other forums and maybe I should just put it in a different thread as it probably will go unnoticed, but:



If R+L doesn't equal J, as many people still seem to believe, please explain the Kingsguard's presence at the tower of joy(which is what I see as the biggest piece of evidence that Jon is a Targ).


More specifically, what are 3/7 Kingsguard doing at the edge of the realm during all of Robert's Rebellion including the Trident, the fall of King's Landing, and the siege of Storm's End. Why aren't they protecting Rhaegar, Aerys, Viserys, or Danaerys, but are instead guarding Lyanna in a tower almost as far away from the battles as possible even after Rhaegar and Aerys have died and Viserys/Danaerys are taken to Dragonstone?



If the answer is simply because they were guarding a hostage, I'm not buying that answer at all. It's not their job to play gaoler, it's their job to protect the king and his/her family. The greatest warriors in the realm would certainly not be designated to guard duty while the entire realm bleeds, the prince is killed in a great battle, and the capital is sacked, ending in the king's death.



If you have other ideas like there's another Targ that they were guarding that isn't JS, or something, anything else, I'm all ears.


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:lmao:

We'd need more family trees to establish if this is a pattern or an exception but if Tywin's marriage to Joanna is anything to go by, I'd bet on the former.

All this talk of lineages keeping to themselves could explain the family looks that are maintained throughout generations. Plus - I think I have mentioned this before - I am constantly reminded of the motive of Card's Wyrms or Herbert's Dune where joining two unique but related lineages produces a special individual. - We really need TWOW soon, I am really curious what GRRM intends to do with the motive.

I definitely think that cousin/cousin marriage is a norm, and acceptable as it was in real history at this time, but incest between brother/sister,(we'll call it "level 2" incest :P ), and niece/uncle, (reminiscent of Rhaenyra and Daemon), aunt/nephew seems a little more intense and maybe deliberate.

It goes back to the theory of the Maesters motives, but in Herberts world where the Bene Gessarit were trying for the Kwisatz Hadderach. deliberately matching the specific bloodlines together, perhaps in Martins world the Citadel is trying to prevent these specific bloodlines from coming together, anticipating that at some point, both Starks and Targaryens would have to marry outside their bloodlines for lack of candidates.

I don't know, I'm looking for any information at this point because I'm starting to get the forums, the books and the show confused now, lol :D

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Maybe someone tried to answer this on the 80 other forums and maybe I should just put it in a different thread as it probably will go unnoticed, but:

If R+L doesn't equal J, as many people still seem to believe, please explain Summerhall (which is what I see as the biggest piece of evidence that Jon is a Targ).

More specifically, what are 3/7 Kingsguard doing at the edge of the realm during all of Robert's Rebellion including the Trident, the fall of King's Landing, and the siege of Storm's End. Why aren't they protecting Rhaegar, Aerys, Viserys, or Danaerys, but are instead guarding Lyanna in a tower almost as far away from the battles as possible even after Rhaegar and Aerys have died and Viserys/Danaerys are taken to Dragonstone?

If the answer is simply because they were guarding a hostage, I'm not buying that answer at all. It's not their job to play gaoler, it's their job to protect the king and his/her family. The greatest warriors in the realm would certainly not be designated to guard duty while the entire realm bleeds, the prince is killed in a great battle, and the capital is sacked, ending in the king's death.

If you have other ideas like there's another Targ that they were guarding that isn't JS, or something, anything else, I'm all ears.

As you point out, it is quite simple the reason for the Kingsguard to be present at the tower of joy. Failing the obvious conclusion that one can draw, there is the (old) dream sequence analyzed in my signature line. Just clik the link and read the post, it is on this thread, a bit earlier.

There is no reasonable other (than Jon) candidate at the tower. Many have tried to theorize how Aegon could have been there, and utterly failed. Viserys was the king, if Jon is not legitimate, but the actions and words of the Kingsguard, especially those of Hightower, verify that Jon is legitimate. Daenerys is not born until 8 to 9 months later, and females inherit after all possible male claimants in the Targaryen line. That would place Daenerys after Renly, at the earliest. Many Daenerys supporters don't like that either. ;)

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There is no reasonable other (than Jon) candidate at the tower. Many have tried to theorize how Aegon could have been there, and utterly failed. Viserys was the king, if Jon is not legitimate, but the actions and words of the Kingsguard, especially those of Hightower, verify that Jon is legitimate. Daenerys is not born until 8 to 9 months later, and females inherit after all possible male claimants in the Targaryen line. That would place Daenerys after Renly, at the earliest. Many Daenerys supporters don't like that either. ;)

Maybe that's because that's not how succession works. Dany would be the last to inherit after all TARGARYENS male heirs have died. The royal family were the Targaryens, Dany as a Targaryen would be the last of her family to inherit. If Dany were to have died and there were no more Targaryen's then the Baratheons would come after her. It's the main line first, then any secondary line if there is any. Just because Dany is female does not mean that a male from a secondary line would come before her in the line of succession.

ETA: I should have added that the only reason that the Baratheons have any claim is because of of a FEMALE Targaryen married into the Baratheon family.

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Also, from the new Stark family tree, looks like a little incest going on there too. :stillsick:

A Serena Stark married her half-uncle Edric, (if I'm reading that correctly though the lines don't look that different from the Rickard/Lyarra lines).

Sansa and Arya are family names apparently.

http://edelweiss-assets.abovethetreeline.com/RH/supplemental/GRRM_WOIF_SellPacket_spreads-lowres.pdf

Knowing my way around a family tree helps in these situations.

Edric & Serena: it's a case of marrying one's half-uncle. Not a completely out of nowhere practice. Though certainly it's a more than a bit incestuous.

Rickard & Lyarra: it's a case of marrying one's first cousin once removed (i.e. the removed part just means Lyarra is Rickard's father's first cousin; had Lyarra had children with anyone else those children would have been second cousins to Rickard).

Also most people have cousin marriages in their family tree if you go back far enough--it was common practice enough as late as the 19th Century. Though there was enough "ick" factor to it that in Catholic countries one had to get a papal dispensation for marrying a close cousin (goes back to some law against it in Deutoromeny IIRC my Old Testament right).

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Maybe that's because that's not how succession works. Dany would be the last to inherit after all TARGARYENS male heirs have died. The royal family were the Targaryens, Dany as a Targaryen would be the last of her family to inherit. If Dany were to have died and there were no more Targaryen's then the Baratheons would come after her. It's the main line first, then any secondary line if there is any. Just because Dany is female does not mean that a male from a secondary line would come before her in the line of succession.

ETA: I should have added that the only reason that the Baratheons have any claim is because of of a FEMALE Targaryen married into the Baratheon family.

And even then, it would go to her sons. And barring that she had no son, then she would be passed over for a male of the female line.

This is at least what I understood was the results of the Dance were--that essentially every possible male inheritor--including bastards--came before a woman. If there's a male by the female line that male would take precedence over her.

It was a common enough thing in actual medieval history. The crown falls to the next male heir--skipping over all the females if they have no male children themselves. When all available men have been absolutely exhausted then and only then it goes to the women (as per the Tudors IRL).

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And even then, it would go to her sons. And barring that she had no son, then she would be passed over for a male of the female line.

This is at least what I understood was the results of the Dance were--that essentially every possible male inheritor--including bastards--came before a woman. If there's a male by the female line that male would take precedence over her.

It was a common enough thing in actual medieval history. The crown falls to the next male heir--skipping over all the females if they have no male children themselves. When all available men have been absolutely exhausted then and only then it goes to the women (as per the Tudors IRL).

Can you point to me where it says this in the text please? As I understood it any male in House Targaryen has a better claim than Dany due to agnatic primogeniture. If a male is making a claim through the female like (like Stannis) then his claim would not be as strong as Dany's which comes through the male line. If a male is from a different house, even though he has Targaryen blood, his claim would not be better than Dany's because hers derives from the patrilineal line.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male-preference_cognatic_primogeniture#Agnatic_primogeniture

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And even then, it would go to her sons. And barring that she had no son, then she would be passed over for a male of the female line.

This is at least what I understood was the results of the Dance were--that essentially every possible male inheritor--including bastards--came before a woman. If there's a male by the female line that male would take precedence over her.

It was a common enough thing in actual medieval history. The crown falls to the next male heir--skipping over all the females if they have no male children themselves. When all available men have been absolutely exhausted then and only then it goes to the women (as per the Tudors IRL).

Don't we know that Myrcella would inherit before Stannis?

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