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Don't we know that Myrcella would inherit before Stannis?

Not unless you go by Dornish inheritance. ;)

It is not pure agnatic primogeniture, it is a highly modified version. I think that GRRM has not fully demonstrated it, but male descendants of female lines inherit. Robert was a male descendant of a female Targaryen. That is why they selected him as king after the rebellion, his claim was the strongest.

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More likely Luwin went with Ned to Riverrun for the wedding, then stayed with Lady Stark while Ned was at war, no?

Perhaps, but didn't the Starks have a Maester that wasn't Luwin, the one that Lady Dustin was referring to when talking to Theon about Rickard Stark's "Southron ambitions"?

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According to GRRM who based his Westeros on Medieval laws of inheritance, I think the laws are rather fluid, again, depending upon what they chose to enforce. These are monarchies and the aristocracy, modeled loosely upon the historical notion of "The Divine Right of Kings," where Europeans royal structures believed they were ordained by God to rule.


In the case of the Targaryens, its the blood of the dragons which carries with its own mystical connotation

In terms of the first born inheriting no matter the gender in the case of Dorne, the kingdom of Navarre also had this in place. But, picking and choosing where they would apply those laws was what started most of the wars.


Here is what GRRM says:


"Well, the short answer is that the laws of inheritance in the Seven Kingdoms are modelled on those in real medieval history... which is to say, they were vague, uncodified, subject to varying interpertations, and often contradictory.


A man's eldest son was his heir. After that the next eldest son. Then the next, etc. Daughters were not considered while there was a living son, except in Dorne, where females had equal right of inheritance according to age.


After the sons, most would say that the eldest daughter is next in line. But there might be an argument from the dead man's brothers, say. Does a male sibling or a female child take precedence? Each side has a "claim."


What if there are no childen, only grandchildren and great grandchildren. Is precedence or proximity the more important principle? Do bastards have any rights? What about bastards who have been legitimized, do they go in at the end after the trueborn kids, or according to birth order? What about widows? And what about the will of the deceased? Can a lord disinherit one son, and name a younger son as heir? Or even a bastard?


There are no clear cut answers, either in Westeros or in real medieval history. Things were often decided on a case by case basis. A case might set a precedent for later cases... but as often as not, the precedents conflicted as much as the claim"- GRRM.



Here is the link for the whole SSM conversation:



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More likely Luwin went with Ned to Riverrun for the wedding, then stayed with Lady Stark while Ned was at war, no?

There is so little information, it seems difficult to say that any scenario is more likely. Ned might have chopped off Walys head the moment he got to Winterfell, after leaving the Vale. Ned might have taken Walys south to war, Walys died, and he picked up Luwin during the war or right after. All are equally possible.

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Perhaps, but didn't the Starks have a Maester that wasn't Luwin, the one that Lady Dustin was referring to when talking to Theon about Rickard Stark's "Southron ambitions"?

Yes, and my take was that he might have been one of the first Maesters to venture into "old god" territory? I'm not sure about that though. Lady D's resentment seemed two-fold, born both of love and opportunity lost due possibly to his machinations

Was he an interloper interfering where he shouldn't have been, trying to get Rickard more politically involved in the South which meant that powerful Northern families had more "competition" from southron daughters for Winterfell?

Might he been trying to set Rickard up, knowing he would be a politcial novice and vulnerable in the south, again going back to the conspiracies of the Citadel, (though apparently it was actually Robert through Ned who asked for Lyannas hand instead of the other way around).

That is one reason I thought Ned may have had something to do with him not being there. :dunno:

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There is another SSM on Targaryen inheritance, specifically. He mentions that after the Dance of the Dragons, females were specifically excluded except where all male heirs, even from collateral lines, were exhausted.


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Perhaps, but didn't the Starks have a Maester that wasn't Luwin, the one that Lady Dustin was referring to when talking to Theon about Rickard Stark's "Southron ambitions"?

I don't have aDwD at hand, but the wiki says of Walys : "It is said he promoted Lord Rickard's southron ambitions, including the marriage of his son, Brandon, to Catelyn Tully." So yes, he was still at Winterfell a short time before the wedding.

There is so little information, it seems difficult to say that any scenario is more likely. Ned might have chopped off Walys head the moment he got to Winterfell, after leaving the Vale. Ned might have taken Walys south to war, Walys died, and he picked up Luwin during the war or right after. All are equally possible.

What is sure is that Luwin was at Riverrun at Robb's birth. Was he sent by the Citadel to replace dead Walys, at Winterfell or at Riverrun, or was he Riverrun's maester, and Catelyn asked him to take service with the Starks and to go with her at Winterfell? I haven't find quotes to show for how long Vyman was maester at Riverrun's, just that it was less than old men like Utherydes Wayn.

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I don't have aDwD at hand, but the wiki says of Walys : "It is said he promoted Lord Rickard's southron ambitions, including the marriage of his son, Brandon, to Catelyn Tully." So yes, he was still at Winterfell a short time before the wedding.

The marriage was arranged between Brandon and Catelyn when she was 12. There is plenty of time between then and when Robb is born for something to have happened to Walys.

There is nothing tying Walys to "a short time before the wedding."

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I'm into this Septa=Ashara deal-but no one has proof. When her name gets brought up at Winterfell after Neds return (people gossip you know), Ned makes damn sure her name is never spoken again. It's in the first book.

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Don't we know that Myrcella would inherit before Stannis?

I'm pretty sure that the only reason Myrcella is referred to as Tommen's direct heir is because Stannis has been attainted for treason and removed entirely by the Lannister bloc.

I know the show isn't the book, but info dropped in the first season suggests that the Targaryen inheritance has been kept intact, or at least, that's the showrunners' interpretation. Sansa is told that if she has only daughters, then Tommen would get the throne. And Renly tells Loras that he's fourth in line, so behind Joffrey, Tommen and Stannis but before Myrcella.

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I always interpreted the passages about Ned scolding his household about the supposed Ashara romance as the Ned protecting everyone's honor, Caetlyn first and foremost, but also Jon and Ashara. I took it to mean that he didn't want the subject talked about, regardless of the name.



Where is the reference to Stannis' and Tommen's inheritance rights? When I first read the above post, I thought perhaps the reference was made because of Dornish law, but I admit I'm a little lost. :-)


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I believe Maester Aemon knew about Rhaegar plans with Lyanna. Also he was the one who told Rhaegar that he was tPtwP. It was Aemon's letter that he read after which he decided he should be a warrior. Here is a link to the complete analysis:



http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/110209-maester-aemons-part-in-the-fate-of-rhaegar-and-the-realm/?p=5793838


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I believe Maester Aemon knew about Rhaegar plans with Lyanna. Also he was the one who told Rhaegar that he was tPtwP. It was Aemon's letter that he read after which he decided he should be a warrior. Here is a link to the complete analysis:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/110209-maester-aemons-part-in-the-fate-of-rhaegar-and-the-realm/?p=5793838

It is much more likely that Rhaegar spoke with Aemon after he had read the scroll and started training. We do know that the Prince that was Promised is supposed to be a descendant of Aerys and Rhaella, from the Woods Witch. Since she knew about the prophesy and never suggested that it was other than Prince, we have to assume that he will be male. Aemon never says anything about Rhaegar and Lyanna, but he does say that Rhaegar and he both believed that Aegon was the Prince that was Promised. Since Aemon does not know of any living Targaryen males, Viserys is dead, he has lost all hope for a savior unless Daenerys qualifies. We do know that Aemon and Melisandre have both been wrong. Anyone spouting off that they know the answer to a prophesy has been wrong.

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That is my take, as well.

Plus, if he gave a name, tongues might start wagging who she was and when and where Ned might have had a chance to meet her. Better not to give any food for thought, I guess - but to Robert he had to provide a name.

Just a thought. Ned tells Robert Jon's mother was Waylla. Ned Dayne tells Arya that him and Jon were Milk Brother becoz Waylla was Jon's mother and Ned Dayne's wet nurse. This version would put Waylla in Dorne.

In AdwD that lord of Sisterton whats his name tells Davos that Ned made a stop on that island while on his way to North to call his banners in North. His version is that Ned made Jon with Waylla , who was a fisherman's daughter (leading credence to the theory of Ned fathering Jon with a commonborn woman.

Now I have a few questions I hope you experts on Jon's parentage will be able to answer satisfavtorily. Textual evidence if possible , not guesses and conjectures.

1. How did this name Wayalla (and the supposed rumor of her being Jon's mother) reach two so far flung places of Westeros?

2. Isnt it curious that name Waylla has a prefix Wy which is common in White Harnours ruling family or perhaps white harbour itself. e.g. Wayman, Wylis, Wynafrada, Wyalla. Or maybe this name came with Manderleys from Reach. But even so how did that lord come to know that specific story

3. Who is elder? Jon or Robb. If Jon is elder by say two to three months it will tie in with the rebellion timeline and Cat's wedding, pregnency and Robb's birth.

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Gosh. That makes him sound a lot like Petyr.

I just re-read that conversation with Illyrio. They sound like they have carefully timed a certain event and have to prevent it happening too soon. So they come up with specific ways to deal with it. Varys is careful and mindful of those who have gone beyond his reach. I'm not saying that he wouldn't take advantage of an opportunity that came his way but he would carefully factor in how the outcome could affect his purpose. If he did incite Brandon to folly, he would have had other options in position, to the point that he would have manipulated the deaths of Elia and Rhaegar and possibly even their children in order to prevent them from inheriting the throne. Could he have kids murdered? I honestly don't know but my impression of him is that he wouldn't. Anyway, Varys might or might not be responsible but we need more information.

As for Brandon, he sounds just the type of rogue who has little and less scruples about seducing high-born maidens and ruining their marriageability but becoming all puckered up righteous about 'his' women and reacting extremely, probably because he knew exactly what was on the other man's mind. Petyr Baelish dared to challenge him for Catelyn, Rhaegar ran off with his little sister. React extremely.

Robert and Brandon. Pathetic.

Agree with your whole post except the post script.

If Robert and Brandon were pathetic for treating 'other woman' like playthings but fiercrly jealous when it came to 'their woman' , what should we call Rhaegar for abandoning his wife and running off with a much younger girl who was someone else's bethroted? Whatever his reasons, he should have not done that or acted more prudently. Dont you think?

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I believe Maester Aemon knew about Rhaegar plans with Lyanna. Also he was the one who told Rhaegar that he was tPtwP. It was Aemon's letter that he read after which he decided he should be a warrior. Here is a link to the complete analysis:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/110209-maester-aemons-part-in-the-fate-of-rhaegar-and-the-realm/?p=5793838

Nah. I think that after Aegon was born, Rhaegar decided to visit Aemon to talk about the prophecy, but he found Lyanna on his way to the North and never got the chance.

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It is much more likely that Rhaegar spoke with Aemon after he had read the scroll and started training. We do know that the Prince that was Promised is supposed to be a descendant of Aerys and Rhaella, from the Woods Witch. Since she knew about the prophesy and never suggested that it was other than Prince, we have to assume that he will be male. Aemon never says anything about Rhaegar and Lyanna, but he does say that Rhaegar and he both believed that Aegon was the Prince that was Promised. Since Aemon does not know of any living Targaryen males, Viserys is dead, he has lost all hope for a savior unless Daenerys qualifies. We do know that Aemon and Melisandre have both been wrong. Anyone spouting off that they know the answer to a prophesy has been wrong.

And we know that the woods witch was wrong if she encouraged Jenny of Oldstones to believe that she was one of those that sing the song of earth. And this rubbish about Aemon declaring Daenerys the one only because he did not know about Jon and Aegon is just that. "The dragons prove it" he said and, at long last, what part of that do you not understand?

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