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R+L=J v 81


Stubby

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And we know that the woods witch was wrong if she encouraged Jenny of Oldstones to believe that she was one of those that sing the song of earth. And this rubbish about Aemon declaring Daenerys the one only because he did not know about Jon and Aegon is just that. "The dragons prove it" he said and, at long last, what part of that do you not understand?

It just means he is making the current state of affairs fit is all. If he knew about Jon & (f)Aegon, he would have said "Here is the 3 heads of the dragon!"

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It just means he is making the current state of affairs fit is all. If he knew about Jon & (f)Aegon, he would have said "Here is the 3 heads of the dragon!"

If you want to persuade me, at least, of the first proposition, you are going to have to do better than just assert it. It is not as though I am a newcomer to the AAR wars, first as "Old-Growth" and now under my current handle.

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Do we have any reason to believe he did know about Jon? He certainly didn't know about "Aegon". Granted thinking she was one of three isn't that much different, but still...

As far as I can see there is nothing in the text to say that Aemon knew that Jon was likely Rhaegar's son. After his speech to Jon in AGoT about the downfall of House Targaryen, it is clear that he was still very upset about what had happened, and if he had suspected that Jon was of his house, there ought to be some hint in the text to that effect. No more than a hint of course since that is all our author is dealing in so far.

Also whereas Aemon is plainly delighted at the prospect of the revival of his house and perhaps also the Targaryen dynasty once he learns about the dragons, he is still Aemon the oldest living maester. Intellectual caution borne of long experience would keep him from the enthusiasm he shows unless there is something pretty strong to back it (three real dragons). He does not appear to know about Drogon's funeral pyre, so I assume that he, like Melisandre, takes Dragonstone to be the place of salt and smoke when he says that Daenerys was born there amidst. Had he known about the pyre and that the red comet was brightly visible above when the dragon eggs hatched, he might have gone back to his earlier "Summerhall" idea.

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Just a thought. Ned tells Robert Jon's mother was Waylla. Ned Dayne tells Arya that him and Jon were Milk Brother becoz Waylla was Jon's mother and Ned Dayne's wet nurse. This version would put Waylla in Dorne.

In AdwD that lord of Sisterton whats his name tells Davos that Ned made a stop on that island while on his way to North to call his banners in North. His version is that Ned made Jon with Waylla , who was a fisherman's daughter (leading credence to the theory of Ned fathering Jon with a commonborn woman.

Now I have a few questions I hope you experts on Jon's parentage will be able to answer satisfavtorily. Textual evidence if possible , not guesses and conjectures.

1. How did this name Wayalla (and the supposed rumor of her being Jon's mother) reach two so far flung places of Westeros?

2. Isnt it curious that name Waylla has a prefix Wy which is common in White Harnours ruling family or perhaps white harbour itself. e.g. Wayman, Wylis, Wynafrada, Wyalla. Or maybe this name came with Manderleys from Reach. But even so how did that lord come to know that specific story

3. Who is elder? Jon or Robb. If Jon is elder by say two to three months it will tie in with the rebellion timeline and Cat's wedding, pregnency and Robb's birth.

Lord Godric never states any name. The connection Wylla = the fisherman's daughter is a fan creation, based on the introduction of Wylla Manderly.

However, the fisherman's daughter as Jon's mother doesn't work - Ned explicitely says that he dishonoured Catelyn when she was with his child, i.e. after their wedding, but he met FMD on his way to the North, before the wedding.

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As far as I can see there is nothing in the text to say that Aemon knew that Jon was likely Rhaegar's son. After his speech to Jon in AGoT about the downfall of House Targaryen, it is clear that he was still very upset about what had happened, and if he had suspected that Jon was of his house, there ought to be some hint in the text to that effect. No more than a hint of course since that is all our author is dealing in so far.

Also whereas Aemon is plainly delighted at the prospect of the revival of his house and perhaps also the Targaryen dynasty once he learns about the dragons, he is still Aemon the oldest living maester. Intellectual caution borne of long experience would keep him from the enthusiasm he shows unless there is something pretty strong to back it (three real dragons). He does not appear to know about Drogon's funeral pyre, so I assume that he, like Melisandre, takes Dragonstone to be the place of salt and smoke when he says that Daenerys was born there amidst. Had he known about the pyre and that the red comet was brightly visible above when the dragon eggs hatched, he might have gone back to his earlier "Summerhall" idea.

Well, nothing suggests it, though it is a bit coincidental that Aemon talks to Jon about his choices and the illustration he uses is his own choice about whether to take the throne or not. That's some pretty nice foreshadowing.

In terms of crackpot musings, there may be some connection between Reed/ other greenseers. Aemon happens to have a relative in the neighborhood who meets greenseer qualifications. And then there's the little matter of Mormont's raven. . . So it's not impossible that Aemon could know more than he lets on.

But Aemon may believe that Jon's made his choice, as he himself had a choice to make, and is respectful of Jon's decision to stay with the NW, so doesn't encourage going down that road any further. Or he might be supporting Jon's choice with the NW because he knows that they can give him the leadership abilities he'll need if for some reason the choice was ever put before him again.

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Well, nothing suggests it, though it is a bit coincidental that Aemon talks to Jon about his choices and the illustration he uses is his own choice about whether to take the throne or not. That's some pretty nice foreshadowing.

I've always thought that scene reminisces, although probably not intentionally, a scene from "The Ten Commandments", when Moses is working as a slave, along with the slaves and some old man is about to die.

Moses: I'll not leave a man to die in the mud.

Simon: Thank you, my son... but death is better than bondage, for my days are ended and my prayer unanswered.

Moses: What prayer, old man?

Simon: That before death closed my eyes, I might behold the deliverer who will lead all men to freedom.

Moses: What deliverer could break the power of Pharaoh?

Egyptian guard: You!

Simon, the old man, dies thinking he hasn't seen the "deliverer", while he's actually talking to him, in the same way that Aemon talks about the death of his family without knowing he has a son of Rhaegar in front of him (this is long before he knows about Dany, Viserys, Aegon or the dragons) and in this case, he can't see him.

Also, it's funny than the guard acts like the ravens who often act like they have some opinions of their own about everything. :lol:

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I've always thought that scene reminisces, although probably not intentionally, a scene from "The Ten Commandments", when Moses is working as a slave, along with the slaves and some old man is about to die.

Moses: I'll not leave a man to die in the mud.

Simon: Thank you, my son... but death is better than bondage, for my days are ended and my prayer unanswered.

Moses: What prayer, old man?

Simon: That before death closed my eyes, I might behold the deliverer who will lead all men to freedom.

Moses: What deliverer could break the power of Pharaoh?

Egyptian guard: You!

Simon, the old man, dies thinking he hasn't seen the "deliverer", while he's actually talking to him, in the same way that Aemon talks about the death of his family without knowing he has a son of Rhaegar in front of him (this is long before he knows about Dany, Viserys, Aegon or the dragons) and in this case, he can't see him.

Also, it's funny than the guard acts like the ravens who often act like they have some opinions of their own about everything. :lol:

Well, if it's true what Bloodraven says, the ravens all have a little bit of a COTF in them, so who knows? Ravens always seem pretty opinionated as it is!

That's a nice passage you bring up. It's ironic in a very bittersweet way.

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In terms of crackpot musings, there may be some connection between Reed/ other greenseers. Aemon happens to have a relative in the neighborhood who meets greenseer qualifications. And then there's the little matter of Mormont's raven. . . So it's not impossible that Aemon could know more than he lets on.

But Aemon may believe that Jon's made his choice, as he himself had a choice to make, and is respectful of Jon's decision to stay with the NW, so doesn't encourage going down that road any further. Or he might be supporting Jon's choice with the NW because he knows that they can give him the leadership abilities he'll need if for some reason the choice was ever put before him again.

Well on the point about Brynden Rivers, Aemon did travel to Eastwatch with him as they were both going North to join the watch, and Aemon would have served Bloodraven as his maester once Brynden became Lord Commander, yet he speaks (to Samwell) in the past tense about Brynden Rivers. I would be suspicious of any assertion that Aemon knows or even suspects that Bloodraven is still alive.

On the second it is hard to say. The two passages where we have real emotional intensity from Aemon are the one in which he talks to Jon about the downfall of House Targaryen and the one

in which he speaks to Samwell after they hear of Dany's dragons. If there was a point at which there would be a hint that he suspected that Jon was his kin it would be, I think, in the first and maybe in the second. I see nothing there, but if you have something you would want to point to, please do so.

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Any old timers here?



How popular was this theory before technology (like this forum) took over? Was it still a popular theory?



I thought I was so clever to think of this theory lol. I had speculation in GoT. And in CoK, I was so sure it was true. I held out using the internet while reading, so right after I finished DwD, I find out it's the most popular theory around. lawlz


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Nah. I think that after Aegon was born, Rhaegar decided to visit Aemon to talk about the prophecy, but he found Lyanna on his way to the North and never got the chance.

Aemon knew about Rhaegar's belief that Aegon is tPtwP.

He shared my belief when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King’s Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet.

So by whatever means Rhaegar succeeded in telling Aemon that.

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It is much more likely that Rhaegar spoke with Aemon after he had read the scroll and started training. We do know that the Prince that was Promised is supposed to be a descendant of Aerys and Rhaella, from the Woods Witch. Since she knew about the prophesy and never suggested that it was other than Prince, we have to assume that he will be male. Aemon never says anything about Rhaegar and Lyanna, but he does say that Rhaegar and he both believed that Aegon was the Prince that was Promised. Since Aemon does not know of any living Targaryen males, Viserys is dead, he has lost all hope for a savior unless Daenerys qualifies. We do know that Aemon and Melisandre have both been wrong. Anyone spouting off that they know the answer to a prophesy has been wrong.

It might be that Rhaegar came to that conclusion himself but Aemon saying "he shared my belief" I think implies that Aemon shared his belief with Aegon. The prince being male assumption is exactly what Aemon finds to be wrong at this moment.

The language misled us all for a thousand years. Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke. The dragons prove it.

So he remarks that:

the sphinx was the riddle, not the riddler

Because the valyrian sphinx has a dragon body and a human head so the riddle (male or female) is the sphinx itself (tPtwP)

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It just means he is making the current state of affairs fit is all. If he knew about Jon & (f)Aegon, he would have said "Here is the 3 heads of the dragon!"

Aemon most likely didn't know about Rhaegar's child because they were in hiding and could not send letters. Also I doubt that Varys would send word of the baby switching all the way to the wall for the same reason: secrecy. It is true that he thinks Dany needs two more Targs and those can be any Trags including himself

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Aemon most likely didn't know about Rhaegar's child because they were in hiding and could not send letters. Also I doubt that Varys would send word of the baby switching all the way to the wall for the same reason: secrecy. It is true that he thinks Dany needs two more Targs and those can be any Trags including himself

There was no baby switching. Aemon heard that the children had been killed, which is exactly what happened.

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Aemon knew about Rhaegar's belief that Aegon is tPtwP.

So by whatever means Rhaegar succeeded in telling Aemon that.

I know that. I meant that they (or he) probably realised they needed to talk face to face about that and that's why he headed North. Or tried to, anyway. Or maybe he did.

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It might be that Rhaegar came to that conclusion himself but Aemon saying "he shared my belief" I think implies that Aemon shared his belief with Aegon. The prince being male assumption is exactly what Aemon finds to be wrong at this moment.

So he remarks that:

Because the valyrian sphinx has a dragon body and a human head so the riddle (male or female) is the sphinx itself (tPtwP)

The important part is that everyone who has named the Prince that was Proimised has been wrong. ;)

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That remains to be seen. You have no proof of this: neither Aemon nor Benerro nor Marwyn have been shown to be wrong.

Aemon has been wrong before when it comes to this prophecy. He initially believed Rhaegar to be TPtwP.

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I just figure that whenever X character says the Prince or AAR is Y character, they're wrong b/c we haven't reached the part in the story for that to be revealed yet. This all seems like misdirection at this point, just from a story-telling perspective. I mean, obviously this is George saying it, and it seems too early in the story to really tell us. Or maybe he really isn't trying to be that complicated, lol.


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I just figure that whenever X character says the Prince or AAR is Y character, they're wrong b/c we haven't reached the part in the story for that to be revealed yet. This all seems like misdirection at this point, just from a story-telling perspective. I mean, obviously this is George saying it, and it seems too early in the story to really tell us. Or maybe he really isn't trying to be that complicated, lol.

:agree: Very valid point. It is like saying the fisherman's daughter is the mother of Jon Snow. :P

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