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R+L=J v 81


Stubby

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Well on the point about Brynden Rivers, Aemon did travel to Eastwatch with him as they were both going North to join the watch, and Aemon would have served Bloodraven as his maester once Brynden became Lord Commander, yet he speaks (to Samwell) in the past tense about Brynden Rivers. I would be suspicious of any assertion that Aemon knows or even suspects that Bloodraven is still alive.

On the second it is hard to say. The two passages where we have real emotional intensity from Aemon are the one in which he talks to Jon about the downfall of House Targaryen and the one

in which he speaks to Samwell after they hear of Dany's dragons. If there was a point at which there would be a hint that he suspected that Jon was his kin it would be, I think, in the first and maybe in the second. I see nothing there, but if you have something you would want to point to, please do so.

I'll have to reread these passages. If I see anything I'll let you know (and it's in line behind a couple of other projects :eek: so it could be a little while). It makes me think that if he knows anything, Aemon has decided that Jon (and possibly Bloodraven) have chosen their respective paths and the door is shut on the matter.

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Agree with your whole post except the post script.

If Robert and Brandon were pathetic for treating 'other woman' like playthings but fiercrly jealous when it came to 'their woman' , what should we call Rhaegar for abandoning his wife and running off with a much younger girl who was someone else's bethroted? Whatever his reasons, he should have not done that or acted more prudently. Dont you think?

I agree. Rhaegar, despite all that's made of his honour and intelligence, acted irresponsibly. I've never understood why the match was made in such a way. And that is part of the mystery of the novels.

As for Robert and Brandon, I'm commenting on their particular type. Rhaegar and Petyr both classify as men who are seen to/actually do treat women as playthings but on a different template.

Hope that's clearer. The Ned and Jon are two of the rare male variety in the series, not the only ones thankfully.

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I'm adding two things to the discussion.



1). Jon has to be a Stark with First Men blood, he is a warg!



Nope. Jon's only affinity is with Ghost: an unusual, early eye-opening, outcast albino direwolf. A special case. Jon does not "have to be a First Men Stark" to have an affinity with Ghost. Dozens of threads about Ghost being associated with BR, yet hundreds of arguments that Jon "has to be a Stark."



So, nope, he doesn't.



2). Elia would have never protected a baby who wasn't her own!



Nope. A reread tells me that even young Elia was caring towards babies. Tyrion, during the Martell's visit to CR when they were all kids. She wanted to hold and cuddle him.



GRRM included all that in the story, not me.


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I'm adding two things to the discussion.

1). Jon has to be a Stark with First Men blood, he is a warg!

Nope. Jon's only affinity is with Ghost: an unusual, early eye-opening, outcast albino direwolf. A special case. Jon does not "have to be a First Men Stark" to have an affinity with Ghost. Dozens of threads about Ghost being associated with BR, yet hundreds of arguments that Jon "has to be a Stark."

So, nope, he doesn't.

2). Elia would have never protected a baby who wasn't her own!

Nope. A reread tells me that even young Elia was caring towards babies. Tyrion, during the Martell's visit to CR when they were all kids. She wanted to hold and cuddle him.

GRRM included all that in the story, not me.

Just to clarify -

1. Jon doesnt have to be a full first man to be a warg but all the wargs or greenseers we have seen till now are either full first men (orell, varamyr) or at least have one parent with first men blood.(all the Stark kids) Jon (on mother's side assuming of course r+l=j), Bloodraven ( Blackwood mother, blackwood are descended from first men), jojen (from the neck, maybe descended from cotf.)

2. Small question. Are you talking about baby switch by Varys?

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I'm adding two things to the discussion.

1). Jon has to be a Stark with First Men blood, he is a warg!

Nope. Jon's only affinity is with Ghost: an unusual, early eye-opening, outcast albino direwolf. A special case. Jon does not "have to be a First Men Stark" to have an affinity with Ghost. Dozens of threads about Ghost being associated with BR, yet hundreds of arguments that Jon "has to be a Stark."

So, nope, he doesn't.

2). Elia would have never protected a baby who wasn't her own!

Nope. A reread tells me that even young Elia was caring towards babies. Tyrion, during the Martell's visit to CR when they were all kids. She wanted to hold and cuddle him.

GRRM included all that in the story, not me.

1) Are you saying that Jon might not be half-Stark, or that this particular argument does not prove it?

2) I don't think anyone doubts that Elia would have tried to protect a helpless non-Aegon baby. But staying with him while Rhaenys was out of sight in a different location? That's got to go against every motherly instinct imaginable.

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Just to clarify -

1. Jon doesnt have to be a full first man to be a warg but all the wargs or greenseers we have seen till now are either full first men (orell, varamyr) or at least have one parent with first men blood.(all the Stark kids) Jon (on mother's side assuming of course r+l=j), Bloodraven ( Blackwood mother, blackwood are descended from first men), jojen (from the neck, maybe descended from cotf.)

2. Small question. Are you talking about baby switch by Varys?

1). Jon's "warging powers" are limited to a very specific, very special and pointedly "different" animal, who most obviously exists for the sole purpose of Jon bonding with him. So far, his "warging powers" are very limited.

As for "greenseers" if you mean having power over nature and having the gift of prophecy, we already have plenty of examples in the text of non-First Men having those abilities. Greenseeing has no place in the discussion of Jon being a Stark, by the way.

2). Yes.

1) Are you saying that Jon might not be half-Stark, or that this particular argument does not prove it?

2) I don't think anyone doubts that Elia would have tried to protect a helpless non-Aegon baby. But staying with him while Rhaenys was out of sight in a different location? That's got to go against every motherly instinct imaginable.

1). I'm saying both. Specifically, that Jon does not need to be half-Stark for the story. Yes, Jon might not be half-Stark. That particular argument does not prove his is a Stark.

I recall a particularly kickass Rhoynish guy fighting the Targ's and cursing them so well that the curse survives to this day. Being a First Man/Warg/Skinchanger does not mean being the penultimate hero of the story; we have more to learn.

2). Many doubt Elia would be cuddling/protecting her non-baby during the Sack, and use it as an argument against a babyswitch.

Few logically realize that Rhaenys could have run and hidden, scared, to under her father's bed, during the confusion. Been encouraged to run and hide by her mother. That someone Elia trusted assured her that Rhaenys was safe. That someone was entrusted to keep watch over Rhaenys in the nursery, and who fled and left her alone. That Elia simply had no time to reach her daughter who was on another floor of the keep. That Elia was perhaps too unwell to pursue her daughter. That perhaps someone lied to Elia. That perhaps there were guards keeping Elia and Aegon in their room... they were after all prisoners of Aerys. That the murder of Rhaenys happened first and Elia heard the commotion and froze in place with a baby in her arms. Maybe that Elia was told Rhaenys would be switched too.

That Elia trusted the Kingsguard to protect the Royal Family (hahaha j/k that didn't happen - I wonder why?).

Those are only a few reasons Elia could not and did not seek out Rhaenys, versus the statement that " well, she should have!"

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I'm adding two things to the discussion.

1). Jon has to be a Stark with First Men blood, he is a warg!

Nope. Jon's only affinity is with Ghost: an unusual, early eye-opening, outcast albino direwolf. A special case. Jon does not "have to be a First Men Stark" to have an affinity with Ghost. Dozens of threads about Ghost being associated with BR, yet hundreds of arguments that Jon "has to be a Stark."

So, nope, he doesn't.

Yes he does. He looks to much like a Stark. One of his parents has to be a Stark. That is the true argument that Jon "has to be a Stark." If you missed the whole Jon looks like Arya who looks like Lyanna. Jon and Arya are also the two Stark kids that look the most like Ned.

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1). Jon's "warging powers" are limited to a very specific, very special and pointedly "different" animal, who most obviously exists for the sole purpose of Jon bonding with him. So far, his "warging powers" are very limited.

As for "greenseers" if you mean having power over nature and having the gift of prophecy, we already have plenty of examples in the text of non-First Men having those abilities. Greenseeing has no place in the discussion of Jon being a Stark, by the way.

2). Yes.

1). I'm saying both. Specifically, that Jon does not need to be half-Stark for the story. Yes, Jon might not be half-Stark. That particular argument does not prove his is a Stark.

I recall a particularly kickass Rhoynish guy fighting the Targ's and cursing them so well that the curse survives to this day. Being a First Man/Warg/Skinchanger does not mean being the penultimate hero of the story; we have more to learn.

2). Many doubt Elia would be cuddling/protecting her non-baby during the Sack, and use it as an argument against a babyswitch.

Few logically realize that Rhaenys could have run and hidden, scared, to under her father's bed, during the confusion. Been encouraged to run and hide by her mother. That someone Elia trusted assured her that Rhaenys was safe. That Elia simply had no time to reach her daughter who was on another floor of the keep. That Elia was perhaps too unwell to pursue her daughter. That perhaps someone lied to Elia. That perhaps there were guards keeping Elia and Aegon in their room... they were after all prisoners of Aerys.

Those are only a few reasons Elia could not and did not seek out Rhaenys, versus the statement that " well, she should have!"

Jon looks like a Stark because one of his parents was a Stark.

Plenty of people logically realize that there are possible explanations for why Elia was with the Pisswater Prince and not Rhaenys. But the fact that this situation requires an explanation at all is curious. Which is exactly the point. It stands out as odd.

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Yes he does. He looks to much like a Stark. One of his parents has to be a Stark. That is the true argument that Jon "has to be a Stark." If you missed the whole Jon looks like Arya who looks like Lyanna. Jon and Arya are also the two Stark kids that look the most like Ned.

He "looks" like a Stark. We've got quite a few characters inworld who "look" like Targ's who aren't.

"Jon looks like a Stark and he is a Warg so he has to have First Men blood from a Stark" doesn't prove a thing to me.

Jon tells us at least three times that he isn't a Stark. Even the spirits of the Stark crypt tell him he doesn't belong there. Why does everyone glaze over that?

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He "looks" like a Stark. We've got quite a few characters inworld who "look" like Targ's who aren't.

"Jon looks like a Stark and he is a Warg so he has to have First Men blood from a Stark" doesn't prove a thing to me.

Jon tells us at least three times that he isn't a Stark. Even the spirits of the Stark crypt tell him he doesn't belong there. Why does everyone glaze over that?

In fact, he's not a Stark. He's either a Targaryen or a bastard. There's your answer.

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Jon tells us at least three times that he isn't a Stark. Even the spirits of the Stark crypt tell him he doesn't belong there. Why does everyone glaze over that?

No Jon tells the spirits that he doesn't belong there. Jon doesn't feel like a Stark because his last name is Snow. He feels that when the spirits in the crypt call to him they are calling him to a place he doesn't belong because he isn't true born.

Edit: Here is the quote:

"And then I find myself in front of the door to the crypts. It's black inside, and I can see the steps spiraling down. Somehow I know I have to go down there, but I don't want to. I'm afraid of what might be waiting for me. The old Kings of Winter are down there, sitting on their thrones with stone wolves at their feet and iron swords across their laps, but it's not them I'm afraid of. I scream that I'm not a Stark, that this isn't my place, but it's no good, I have to go anyway, so I start down feeling the walls as I descend, with no torch to light the way."

AGoT Pg. 267

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Other than unreliable visions, dreams, allusions and metaphors being interpreted to fit the theory, this is all I read when I go through this thread:


"Rhaegar abandoned his family, including his son TPTWP, and disappeared while the kingdom was falling apart, letting his family become prisoners of his insane father. But OOPS he was wrong about the prophecy about his son with Elia! Good thing he abandoned TWTWP and his wife and daughter to kidnap another woman even before he knew the prophecy was wrong! Bravo Rhaegar! And how wonderful that his sister Daenerys was given a vision of this INCORRECT prophecy! So clever. Just disregard the prophecy part and everything else he says is golden. What a guy.


Lyanna abandoned her family and didn't even peep about her whereabouts even after her father and brother were brutally killed... by her new husband's father *insert sparkly hearts and wedding bells here* But she was a great gal. So selfless. A Queen who didn't demand proper medical care! Amazing woman.


Jon outright tells us he isn't a Stark, but don't believe him when he says that. Otherwise, he's very honorable and every dream he has and every dream he utters is the ultimate truth!


There is absolutely no one else in the story who can be the blue rose, since Lyanna liked them! That they're associated with Bael the Bard and, who is by the intent of the author associated with Abel/Mance, can be totally disregarded! It's not like we have any other kidnapped Stark girls in the story to consider! Well, two others, but we won't mention that in this context, because R+L=J!"

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Other than unreliable visions, dreams, allusions and metaphors being interpreted to fit the theory, this is all I read when I go through this thread:

"Rhaegar abandoned his family, including his son TPTWP, and disappeared while the kingdom was falling apart, letting his family become prisoners of his insane father. But OOPS he was wrong about the prophecy about his son with Elia! Good thing he abandoned TWTWP and his wife and daughter to kidnap another woman even before he knew the prophecy was wrong! Bravo Rhaegar! And how wonderful that his sister Daenerys was given a vision of this INCORRECT prophecy! So clever. Just disregard the prophecy part and everything else he says is golden. What a guy.

Lyanna abandoned her family and didn't even peep about her whereabouts even after her father and brother were brutally killed... by her new husband's father *insert sparkly hearts and wedding bells here* But she was a great gal. So selfless. A Queen who didn't demand proper medical care! Amazing woman.

Jon outright tells us he isn't a Stark, but don't believe him when he says that. Otherwise, he's very honorable and every dream he has and every dream he utters is the ultimate truth!

There is absolutely no one else in the story who can be the blue rose, since Lyanna liked them! That they're associated with Bael the Bard and, who is by the intent of the author associated with Abel/Mance, can be totally disregarded! It's not like we have any other kidnapped Stark girls in the story to consider! Well, two others, but we won't mention that in this context, because R+L=J!"

I don't know why you're glazing over this, but Jon isn't a Stark. You seem to be confusing being a Stark with having Stark blood.

Catelyn's children aren't Tully's, yet they have Tully blood. Just like Jon isn't a Stark, yet has Stark blood.

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I don't know why you're glazing over this, but Jon isn't a Stark. You seem to be confusing being a Stark with having Stark blood.

Catelyn's children aren't Tully's, yet they have Tully blood. Just like Jon isn't a Stark, yet has Stark blood.

And I don't know why you're glazing over everything else.

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Aemon has been wrong before when it comes to this prophecy. He initially believed Rhaegar to be TPtwP.

But he has not been shown to be wrong about Daenerys, the which is what I meant. If his summerhall theory about Rhaeger is wrong (putting aside the inconvenient fact that Rhaegar is dead), then other salt from tears / smoke from a fire (or from blood at body temperature in the cold) are questionable at best and wrong at worst, unless there is something remarkable and magical if possible associated with the same, as at Khal Drogo's funeral pyre.

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