R+L=J v 81

[Disputatious]

And i don't know why i want a glazed doughnut.

Blood sugar level getting low? :) :)

[Ser Leftwich]

Other than unreliable visions, dreams, allusions and metaphors being interpreted to fit the theory, this is all I read when I go through this thread:

"Rhaegar abandoned his family, including his son TPTWP, and disappeared while the kingdom was falling apart, letting his family become prisoners of his insane father. But OOPS he was wrong about the prophecy about his son with Elia! Good thing he abandoned TWTWP and his wife and daughter to kidnap another woman even before he knew the prophecy was wrong! Bravo Rhaegar! And how wonderful that his sister Daenerys was given a vision of this INCORRECT prophecy! So clever. Just disregard the prophecy part and everything else he says is golden. What a guy.

These books depend on the whys and motivations of characters, not the details. We learn very early on that Jaime Lannister killed Aerys, but later we learn why. Whys change things.

Lyanna abandoned her family and didn't even peep about her whereabouts even after her father and brother were brutally killed... by her new husband's father *insert sparkly hearts and wedding bells here* But she was a great gal. So selfless. A Queen who didn't demand proper medical care! Amazing woman.

These books depend on the whys and motivations of characters, not the details. We learn very early on that Jaime Lannister killed Aerys, but later we learn why. Whys change things.

Jon outright tells us he isn't a Stark, but don't believe him when he says that. Otherwise, he's very honorable and every dream he has and every dream he utters is the ultimate truth!

Stark look versus Stark name.

There is absolutely no one else in the story who can be the blue rose, since Lyanna liked them! That they're associated with Bael the Bard and, who is by the intent of the author associated with Abel/Mance, can be totally disregarded! It's not like we have any other kidnapped Stark girls in the story to consider! Well, two others, but we won't mention that in this context, because R+L=J!"

Both Lyanna and Rhaegar and... well any character in the story could know the story of Bael the Bard. How many actual blue roses have come up in the story?

What other line of logic is there? That Mance will kidnap a Stark girl and leave a Stark heir for the end of the story? Can not the blue rose be related to more than one thing: Babies, kidnapping, deception, maiden daughters.

He "looks" like a Stark. We've got quite a few characters inworld who "look" like Targ's who aren't.

Many people have the "Valyrian" look, not the "Targaryen" look.

[Ygrain]

He "looks" like a Stark. We've got quite a few characters inworld who "look" like Targ's who aren't.

"Jon looks like a Stark and he is a Warg so he has to have First Men blood from a Stark" doesn't prove a thing to me.

Jon tells us at least three times that he isn't a Stark. Even the spirits of the Stark crypt tell him he doesn't belong there. Why does everyone glaze over that?

And can you show us the abundance of characters having the Stark look but not being Stark?

[Chebyshov]

And can you show us the abundance of characters having the Stark look but not being Stark?

The Royce's have grey eyes and I think dark hair, Sandor has the same coloring, and Val had grey eyes for a hot minute (though light hair). But the Royces and Sandor don't match the Stark appearance in stature. I really can't think of any characters that share the same exact description of the "Stark look", nor is there any real reason to assume that Jon doesn't have Stark blood, especially given his established connection to the Old Gods (Ghost).

[ArabellaVidal]

And I don't know why you're glazing over everything else.

You keep saying that Jon, who has no idea about it at all, is far more reliable in his knowledge of his parentage? I don't get it.

As for his looks,

"Jon was never out of sight, and as he grew, he looked more like Ned than any of the trueborn sons she bore him."

Catelyn II, AGOT

[Chebyshov]

Also the whole Ned raising him and telling Jon he had his blood should be a tip off. Ned very rarely lies.

[Ygrain]

The Royce's have grey eyes and I think dark hair, Sandor has the same coloring, and Val had grey eyes for a hot minute (though light hair). But the Royces and Sandor don't match the Stark appearance in stature. I really can't think of any characters that share the same exact description of the "Stark look", nor is there any real reason to assume that Jon doesn't have Stark blood, especially given his established connection to the Old Gods (Ghost).

The Stark look doesn't cover only hair and eyes colour but also the long face, and as far as I know, no non-Stark character is ever described as sharing the look.

[Alia of the knife]

The Royce's have grey eyes and I think dark hair, Sandor has the same coloring, and Val had grey eyes for a hot minute (though light hair). But the Royces and Sandor don't match the Stark appearance in stature. I really can't think of any characters that share the same exact description of the "Stark look", nor is there any real reason to assume that Jon doesn't have Stark blood, especially given his established connection to the Old Gods (Ghost).

Don't the Royces have Stark blood by way of a marriage to a Stark daughter?

[Chebyshov]

Don't the Royces have Stark blood by way of a marriage to a Stark daughter?

Yeah, a couple generations back. I was just pointing out coloring, but as I said, the stature doesn't match. The proper Stark look seems fairly distinct.

[Alia of the knife]

Yeah, a couple generations back. I was just pointing out coloring, but as I said, the stature doesn't match. The proper Stark look seems fairly distinct.

I agree.

I always had the sense Martin was making a point about the two families as almost "book ends; "two distinctive dynasties, but similar families- right down to the incest. :ack:

[Rhaegar I Targaryen]

The Stark look doesn't cover only hair and eyes colour but also the long face, and as far as I know, no non-Stark character is ever described as sharing the look.

Maybe Lyanna is Kim Kardashian? She has the Stark look... (long face)

:drunk: :drunk: :drunk:

[Greymoon]

The Stark look doesn't cover only hair and eyes colour but also the long face, and as far as I know, no non-Stark character is ever described as sharing the look.

...there's Alys Karstark, but she doesn't really count being "kin" and all... Jon thinks she "looked enough like Arya to give him pause." IIRC, she's a skinny, coltish girl with a longish face, a pointy chin and small ears...

In any case, I suspect, that there was enough mingling over the generations for the two houses to have "kept" similar looks (I know about the Stark genealogy, recently released -- IMO not every single marriage was written down there...).

I agree that the "Stark look" is not just brown hair and grey eyes. When characters like the Half-hand or Mance Rayder (or other NW brothers), say that Jon has the Stark look, it’d seem logical if the "Stark Norm" is set by...Benjen, no? And he has blue eyes -- grey eyes don't make a Stark either. It's more than that; it's the general facial features (as you said, a longish face; but maybe also the set of the jaw; or the shape of eyes...or the nose; forehead etc... who knows what the "Stark look" is really?); body language and facial expressions shouldn't be discounted either...

I hope this won't start a Jon is a secret Karstark theory... ;)

[Chebyshov]

...there's Alys Karstark, but she doesn't really count being "kin" and all... Jon thinks she "looked enough like Arya to give him pause." IIRC, she's a skinny, coltish girl with a longish face, a pointy chin and small ears...

In any case, I suspect, that there was enough mingling over the generations for the two houses to have "kept" similar looks (I know about the Stark genealogy, recently released -- IMO not every single marriage was written down there...).

I agree that the "Stark look" is not just brown hair and grey eyes. When characters like the Half-hand or Mance Rayder (or other NW brothers), say that Jon has the Stark look, it’d seem logical if the "Stark Norm" is set by...Benjen, no? And he has blue eyes -- grey eyes don't make a Stark either. It's more than that; it's the general facial features (as you said, a longish face; but maybe also the set of the jaw; or the shape of eyes...or the nose; forehead etc... who knows what the "Stark look" is really?); body language and facial expressions shouldn't be discounted either...

I hope this won't start a Jon is a secret Karstark theory... ;)

Well the Karstarks are a cadet branch of the Starks, so similar features makes sense for them. And Benjen's eyes are "blue-grey," so they're not dissimilar (mayhaps even foreshadowing him becoming a wight, but that's quite a leap).

But Jon's look coupled with Ned raising him and calling him "his blood" should really be enough for us to assume that Jon has Stark blood in him.

[sj4iy]

Well the Karstarks are a cadet branch of the Starks, so similar features makes sense for them. And Benjen's eyes are "blue-grey," so they're not dissimilar (mayhaps even foreshadowing him becoming a wight, but that's quite a leap).

But Jon's look coupled with Ned raising him and calling him "his blood" should really be enough for us to assume that Jon has Stark blood in him.

...that and the fact that he can warg a dire wolf should be enough XD

[Greymoon]

Well the Karstarks are a cadet branch of the Starks, so similar features makes sense for them. And Benjen's eyes are "blue-grey," so they're not dissimilar (mayhaps even foreshadowing him becoming a wight, but that's quite a leap).

But Jon's look coupled with Ned raising him and calling him "his blood" should really be enough for us to assume that Jon has Stark blood in him.

I wasn't posting that to say we can doubt Jon's Stark blood (on the contrary); only to point out that Alys also shares the "Stark look" to some extent.

Aye, House Karstark is a cadet branch, but a cadet branch from "a thousand years before" when the Starks where still King in the North. That's quite a few generations inbetween now and then. I don't buy it. I'm certain there're much more recent blood ties to explain the resemblance; even as recent as only two generations back (through the female line, and the Flint grandmother for ex.)

In any case...

While GRRM's genetics are skewed they are not completely made up, IMO. For me the "famous Stark look" is one that applies mostly to Ned, and to Ned's generation: he and his siblings. Maybe Rickard Stark + wife should be counted as well; but I don't expect that every Stark ever born had the same look -- Cat's children certainly don't. So basically, what I'm trying to say somewhat is that it's not a matter of Jon having the "Stark look" but actually looking like Ned, and/or Benjen (and that eye/hair color is not the only factor here)

In short, I consider both Ned and Benjen as the "norm setter" for the current Stark look people constantly refer to...thus saying that Jon has the Stark look IMO kind of equates saying that Jon looks like Ned; or that Jon looks like Benjen >> he cannot possibly have no blood ties to the Stark brothers and yet look like them.

[Ghost's Shadow]

The Stark look is also a cold look, one that hides emotions. Both Ned and Jon have that.

[Fool of a Book]

The Stark look doesn't cover only hair and eyes colour but also the long face, and as far as I know, no non-Stark character is ever described as sharing the look.

Aerys I Targeryan: long thin face SSM

There are more, working on it.

[Fool of a Book]

And can you show us the abundance of characters having the Stark look but not being Stark?

dark hair? a longish face? grey eyes?

Jon has dark brown hair and eyes so dark they almost look black.

Black eyes: Martell trait

Name any Martell with dark hair and dark eyes, then.

[Consigliere]

“Jon’s eyes were a grey so dark they seemed almost black”

Dark grey =/= black.

[Fool of a Book]

“Jon’s eyes were a grey so dark they seemed almost black”

Dark grey =/= black.

As would be expected from an observer expecting to see a Stark.