R+L=J v 81

[Ygrain]

Aerys I Targeryan: long thin face SSM

There are more, working on it.

dark hair? a longish face? grey eyes?

Jon has dark brown hair and eyes so dark they almost look black.

Black eyes: Martell trait

Name any Martell with dark hair and dark eyes, then.

Could you possibly think a bit harder and combine all those features, so that someone seeing that person goes "hey, you look like a Stark"?

[Consigliere]

As would be expected from an observer expecting to see a Stark.

Not really.

[Ygrain]

Under the impression of "Rhaegar = Mance", I'll also allow myself a little crackpotting.

GRRM was asked:

Who recovered Rhaegar's corpse (if anyone did it) and where was he buried (if he was buried)?

Curiously, his answer confirmed that Rhaegar was dead but actually avoided the points that the poster raised.

Rhaegar was cremated, as is traditional for fallen Targaryens.

This has been fun, but time is passing and I have another long day tomorrow, and so I´m going to need to wind this up.

We know that When Ned had finally come on the scene, Rhaegar lay dead in the stream, while men of both armies scrabbled in the swirling waters for rubies knocked free of his armor. So, the body was recovered only after Ned's arrival, and I don't think it unreasonably that it was Ned personally who gave the order to take care of his body. One has to wonder then whether some ashes could be collected and what happened with them - whether, perchance, Lyanna's request to be buried at Winterfell (kinda something that is normally done with the dead family members), might actually also encompas being buried with Rhaegar, and her tomb contains two urns. Should this be the case, it would drive the point home even more safely than Rhaegar's harp or the Targaryen wedding cloak.

[Alia of the knife]

...there's Alys Karstark, but she doesn't really count being "kin" and all... Jon thinks she "looked enough like Arya to give him pause." IIRC, she's a skinny, coltish girl with a longish face, a pointy chin and small ears...

In any case, I suspect, that there was enough mingling over the generations for the two houses to have "kept" similar looks (I know about the Stark genealogy, recently released -- IMO not every single marriage was written down there...).

I agree that the "Stark look" is not just brown hair and grey eyes. When characters like the Half-hand or Mance Rayder (or other NW brothers), say that Jon has the Stark look, itd seem logical if the "Stark Norm" is set by...Benjen, no? And he has blue eyes -- grey eyes don't make a Stark either. It's more than that; it's the general facial features (as you said, a longish face; but maybe also the set of the jaw; or the shape of eyes...or the nose; forehead etc... who knows what the "Stark look" is really?); body language and facial expressions shouldn't be discounted either...

I hope this won't start a Jon is a secret Karstark theory... ;)

Why not, he has been everybody's kid accept Varys. :)

[Fool of a Book]

Could you possibly think a bit harder and combine all those features, so that someone seeing that person goes "hey, you look like a Stark"?

And the Pisswater Prince "looked" like a Targ. So?

You asked for a long face, and I gave you a Targ... who happens to be the long-faced son of a Targ and a Martell. No Stark blood for the long face.

By your logic, everyone with purple/violet eyes and blonde/silver hair is a Targ.

Which they of course are not. Ergo, just because someone "looks" like they come from a certain bloodline doesn't mean they did.

[Fool of a Book]

Under the impression of "Rhaegar = Mance", I'll also allow myself a little crackpotting.

GRRM was asked:

Who recovered Rhaegar's corpse (if anyone did it) and where was he buried (if he was buried)?

Curiously, his answer confirmed that Rhaegar was dead but actually avoided the points that the poster raised.

Rhaegar was cremated, as is traditional for fallen Targaryens.

This has been fun, but time is passing and I have another long day tomorrow, and so I´m going to need to wind this up.

We know that When Ned had finally come on the scene, Rhaegar lay dead in the stream, while men of both armies scrabbled in the swirling waters for rubies knocked free of his armor. So, the body was recovered only after Ned's arrival, and I don't think it unreasonably that it was Ned personally who gave the order to take care of his body. One has to wonder then whether some ashes could be collected and what happened with them - whether, perchance, Lyanna's request to be buried at Winterfell (kinda something that is normally done with the dead family members), might actually also encompas being buried with Rhaegar, and her tomb contains two urns. Should this be the case, it would drive the point home even more safely than Rhaegar's harp or the Targaryen wedding cloak.

So Ned collected R's urn somehow then made his long journey through the Stormlands and Dorne, not knowing that he would find Lyanna having just given birth to R's child and that he should save the urn and burn Lyanna and put her in an urn as well? OK then.

[Emerentiana_Zamora]

By your logic, everyone with purple/violet eyes and blonde/silver hair is a Targ.

Not a Targ, a Valyrian. And what logic? That certain, distinct characteristics are part of a family. They may skip a few generations but they surface a lot. For example my brother has my maternal grandfather's face according to my mom. If his grandsons have the same face I would classify that as part of his families look. And also have you never run into two siblings who don't look 100% the same but there is some physical characteristic in both of them. For example my brother and I supposedly have the same nose. However neither I nor he can see this. I would classify our nose as part of the classical family look.

[Lady Octarina]

So, I haven't been around this thread since it was still v40, perhaps? But something just occurred to me, and it doesn't seem relevant enough to open a different thread just for it. The most accepted theory about Rhaegar and his understanding of the prophecy is that he wanted to name all his children after Aegon I and his sisters, and so he thought the child he would have with Lyanna would be a girl, his Visenya. But if he truly wanted to emulate them, saw his children as the conquerors reborn or whatever, why did he call his oldest daughter Rhaenys? I mean, the right order would be, following his ancestors, Visenya > Aegon > Rhaenys, so why wouldn't he follow it?

And I must say, I'm surprised to see some old faces like Alia and Ygrain have stayed around here all these years :grouphug:

[Emerentiana_Zamora]

So Ned collected R's urn somehow then made his long journey through the Stormlands and Dorne, not knowing that he would find Lyanna having just given birth to R's child and that he should save the urn and burn Lyanna and put her in an urn as well? OK then.

Did you miss the word CRACKPOTTING. Or did I miss read what Ygrain read.

[Fool of a Book]

Did you miss the word CRACKPOTTING. Or did I miss read what Ygrain read.

I missed neither, but according to canon facts, the theory that Ned toted R's urn everywhere without foresight and then burned Lyanna and put her in an urn... sorry that's not crackpot, it's just wrong.

[Fool of a Book]

Not a Targ, a Valyrian. And what logic? That certain, distinct characteristics are part of a family. They may skip a few generations but they surface a lot. For example my brother has my maternal grandfather's face according to my mom. If his grandsons have the same face I would classify that as part of his families look. And also have you never run into two siblings who don't look 100% the same but there is some physical characteristic in both of them. For example my brother and I supposedly have the same nose. However neither I nor he can see this. I would classify our nose as part of the classical family look.

Since when do Targ's not look like Valyrians? That happens to be the basis of an entire theory on these boards.

Targ's ARE Valyrian.

Correction: There are several accepted theories based on the fact a person of Valyrian descent "looks like a Targ."

[Ser Leftwich]

(Valyrian (Targaryan)) when it comes to features/looks/coloring.

Targaryans are a sub-set within the Valyrian look. They are just the most notable family, who may have also inbred more than some other Valyrian families, which might account for the pronounced features/looks/coloring.

[Fool of a Book]

(Valyrian (Targaryan)) when it comes to features/looks/coloring.

Targaryans are a sub-set within the Valyrian look. They are just the most notable family, who may have also inbred more than some other Valyrian families, which might account for the pronounced features/looks/coloring.

So, the Stark's inbred to have such special coloring?

Other than the pale hair and eyes in the violet range, what other features of the Targs are pronounced? To distinguish them lookswise from other Valyrians?

Maybe the long face of Aerys I? Nah, that can't be it.... that only happened, historically, when a Targ breeds with a Martell.

Sandor has grey eyes and dark brown hair. He must be a Stark.

[Ser Leftwich]

So, the Stark's inbred to have such special coloring?

Other than the pale hair and eyes in the violet range, what other features of the Targs are pronounced? To distinguish them lookswise from other Valyrians?

Maybe the long face of Aerys I? Nah, that can't be it....

We know the Starks did.

[Fool of a Book]

We know the Starks did.

Oh, do we? Pray tell.

Yet, a Targ/Martell union resulted in Aerys I, of the long face, while it was not a renowned trait of either family.

And a Targ/Martell union resulted in Rhaenys, with dark eyes and brown hair, while previously Targ kids "mostly" had Targ coloring.

Neither were inbred. Genetics is cool like that.

Also, you haven't provided another feature that makes the Targs distinct from others of Valyrian blood.

And by feature I mean simply LOOKS, not dragon blood lore.

Robb, Sansa, Bran and Rickon = blue eyed, auburn hair = Not Starks

Sandor Clegane = grey eyes, brown hair = Stark

Really, this whole "but Jon looks like a Stark! Proof of R+L=J!" thing needs to be taken off the table

And actually, I think that the fact that Jon "looks like a Stark" is incredibly important to the story... but it is not proof R+L=J.

[Greymoon]

Why not, he has been everybody's kid accept Varys. :)

So...Rickard Karstark + Lyanna = Jon? ;) incidentally, it's still a R+L=J theory.

In any case, I'm inclined to believe that Jon has only "superficially" a Stark look. He has the hair; the eyes (though darker; I think we all agree this came from the Targaryen side? Aegon V and Rhaegar both had dark eyes). Jon's also got the longish face and the attitude, the cold gaze etc... but I picture him more like a good mix of both his parents and wouldn’t be surprised if that were the case (clue Aemon’s blindness.)

That said, since Rhaegar died some 16/17 years ago; I doubt anyone really remembers what he truly looked liked -- besides for his eyes and hair. And even then... memory is ever so fickle and tricky in real life... would anyone besides Ned/Howland (= people who know what to look for) actually be able to call the bluff?

(I think the Dany/Barristan faction would be the likeliest candidates. Dany didn't know Rhaegar of course, but she knew Viserys pretty well and in the HotU, she confused the one for the other at first >> I'm assuming Viserys and Rhaegar looked quite a bit alike)

If Jon looks more like Rhaegar than we are expecting; is it reasonable to assume that Jon's revelation would cast a big shadow/doubt on fAegon's identity? (having silver hair and purple eyes =/= from looking like Rhaegar Targaryen after all, else Arthur Dayne and Rhaegar might as well have been twins ;) )

[Fool of a Book]

So...Rickard Karstark + Lyanna = Jon? ;) incidentally, it's still a R+L=J theory.

In any case, I'm inclined to believe that Jon has only "superficially" a Stark look. He has the hair; the eyes (though darker; I think we all agree this came from the Targaryen side? Aegon V and Rhaegar both had dark eyes). Jon's also got the longish face and the attitude, the cold gaze etc... but I picture him more like a good mix of both his parents and wouldn’t be surprised if that were the case (clue Aemon’s blindness.)

That said, since Rhaegar died some 16/17 years ago; I doubt anyone really remembers what he truly looked liked -- besides for his eyes and hair. And even then... memory is ever so fickle and tricky in real life... would anyone besides Ned/Howland (= people who know what to look for) actually be able to call the bluff?

(I think the Dany/Barristan faction would be the likeliest candidates. Dany didn't know Rhaegar of course, but she knew Viserys pretty well and in the HotU, she confused the one for the other at first >> I'm assuming Viserys and Rhaegar looked quite a bit alike)

If Jon looks more like Rhaegar than we are expecting; is it reasonable to assume that Jon's revelation would cast a big shadow/doubt on fAegon's identity? (having silver hair and purple eyes =/= from looking like Rhaegar Targaryen after all, else Arthur Dayne and Rhaegar might as well have been twins ;) )

Dany's HoTU vision is Rhaeger, Elia and Aegon. SSM confirmed.

And I think the same, but maybe for different reasons. Jon doesn't "look" like a Targ, while F-Rh-Aegon "looks" like a Targ.

[Ser Leftwich]

Oh, do we? Pray tell.

There is an in-depth Stark family tree floating around, part of the forthcoming AWOIAF book.

Yet, a Targ/Martell union resulted in Aerys I, of the long face, while it was not a renowned trait of either family.

And a Targ/Martell union resulted in Rhaenys, with dark eyes and brown hair, while previously Targ kids "mostly" had Targ coloring.

Neither were inbred. Genetics is cool like that.

The point is that their ancestors had practiced inbreeding, which, with the in universe genomics, can bring out Targ madness/features later.

Also, you haven't provided another feature that makes the Targs distinct from others of Valyrian blood.

No one is arguing that Targs are distinct from Valyrians in general. There are no Targ features that make them distinct from other Valyrians.

Really, this whole "but Jon looks like a Stark! Proof of R+L=J!" thing needs to be taken off the table

Circumstantial evidence.

And actually, I think that the fact that Jon "looks like a Stark" is incredibly important to the story... but it is not proof R+L=J.

How is would/could Jon "looking like a Stark" be incredibly important to the story? (I am genuinely curious.)

[Fool of a Book]

How is would/could Jon "looking like a Stark" be incredibly important to the story? (I am genuinely curious.)

Because that's why Ned was able to bring him to Winterfell. If Ned had brought home a baby that "looks like a Targ" I'm sure we could all imagine the problem with that.

[Ser Leftwich]

Because that's why Ned was able to bring him to Winterfell. If Ned had brought home a baby that "looks like a Targ" I'm sure we could all imagine the problem with that.

So Jon "looks like a Stark," but has no Stark parents. Is there a full alternative theory that goes with this or is this just generally dissenting? (Dissenting is fine.)

So GRRM has written that Jon "has the Stark look" as a false clue?

And Jon happens to "have the Stark look" from who knows whom parents, for a plot convenience for the author, so that Ned can get away with calling him his bastard?